www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine/Eastern Rosary

Yes, both are excellent!

However, in the EC desire to "Easternize," we can sometimes go overboard or else "try too hard."

One may, but does not have to, add the extra Eastern prayers to the Most Holy Theotokos. We have nothing to "prove" in terms of our Eastern perspective on the veneration of the Theotokos.

The Byzantine "Hail Mary" is itself a Kondakion and is treated as such liturgically.

It begins with the traditional "Theotokos Virgin" which summarizes the teaching of the early Councils about the Mother of God.

It again ends with a theological invocation : "for Thou/You have given birth to Christ the Saviour, the Redeemer of our souls." (The Old Believers and the Ukrainian Catholics agree on this ending - other Orthodox and EC's would say simply "given birth to the Saviour of our souls."

The Eastern version is primarily a hymn of praise of the Mother of God. There is no supplicatory section to it, as there is in the Western Hail Mary. (An EC priest friend of mine used, until I scolded him for it :), the RC ending to the Byzantine Rejoice Theotokos Virgin prayer . . . that really is a Latinization.)

St Seraphim of Sarov asked us to include the prayer "Open to us the doors of Your mercy . . ." and this is said in the East either after the Our Father or following the decade (and the Russian Orthodox do indeed use the term "decade" to describe this "unit" of prayer).

The teaching of Pope Saint John Paul the Great in his encyclical above touches on many excellent and important points. One such point is the emphasis that should be given to the doxology following each decade.

Those who follow that pattern of the rosary and who are EC could use the full psalmic doxology which marks the end of each stasis of the twenty kathismata of the Byzantine Psalter: Glory be to the Father . . . Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Glory to You, o God (3 times) Lord have mercy (3 times) Glory be to the Father . . ..

If one is in the habit of using the Fatima decade prayer or any other prayer to the Mother of God at the end of each decade, one could work it into the final Glory be . . . as it is done in the liturgical services, e.g. "Glory be to the Father . . . We fly to Your Patronage . . . And now and always . . . Fatima decade prayer.

It is all good and it is all Eastern, Western, Northern and Southern . . ."

Alex

Thanks, for this

Indeed, most things can be overdone.

I asked Fr. Francis Vivona about his confusing title once.

He's a non-monastic, but got named "Archimandrate" for some reason. He opened/founded a couple of of the RC parishes here (which certainly have some byzantine elements if you know what to look for) for the local bishop (hmm, may have been Bishop of Reno back then . . .).

Anyway, he kind of shrugged, and explained that he just gave up and accepted "Monsignor".

My daughter and her family currently attend there.

hawk, who knows a bit about the economy . . .

Actually, the Roman Rite has over 30 versions of praying the Rosary and ALL are valid and approved. The last version and the one I feel is one of the most beautiful is that of St Pope John Paul II who instituted the addition of the Luminous Mysteries (Les Mystères Lumineux in French... I had to put this in here as I say my prayers in French and want to ensure there is no confusion here between 'Luminary' and 'Luminous' in terms of terminology and I do think I have the English version of it correct here).

St John Paul II even made a CD praying this Rosary in different languages (which I purchased and you can hear his slightly trembling aging voice on it ...beautiful!) to teach the world how to pray Our Lady - it became his favourite prayer and he was famous for reciting it frequently practically every spare moment he had - be it in walks in gardens, on vacation, each morning - everywhere he could. St Pope John Paul II had a strong devotion to Our Lady. In the last year of his life, while he could not participate to an event, the Vatican photographer captured him in photo as frail as he was... kneeling in the Vatican private chapel of the Pope, bent over the 'prie Dieu' (like a prayer'podium') praying the Rosary with such fervent devotional manner - it was a sight to behold! This photo was shared around the globe and I sure would love to find it again!

Also, although it is not 'liturgy' as some would have it (and I would beg to differ as Mary does have 'liturgy' of Her own in a manner and oft we ignore this as Her Word is as valid in what She imparts to us as that of the Apostles and other Holy prayers and scriptures we incorporate in our rites) -- for Roman Catholics the Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God in Her apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugory - Herself - specifically asked that we pray the Rosary (as passed in the accounts of the visionaries). It was said that each prayer made to her in this way was like depositing a rose at her feet and hence this is why many Catholic Rosaries have roses between each decade to mark the places where we pray upon the Mysteries or all the beads can also be made in the shape of roses. . . - a 'Rosary.'

In the Roman Catholic Church, a Rosary is specifically devoted to the Holy Mother of God - The Virgin Mary - while a 'chaplet' (which can oft take the appearance of a rosary) is for specific devotions and some are a 'combination' of BOTH and are called 'Chaplet-Rosaries.' However, in French be careful as 'un chapelet' is ALSO the SAME as a 'Rosary' as one always prays Mary in the course of such prayers. Many rosaries and 'chaplets' originated via specific religious traditions - i.e., with the Benedictine (The Chaplet of St Benedict); Cisternians - AND, there are MANY 'Rosaries':

- The Chaplet-Rosary of the Divine Mercy (instituted by Saint Faustina Kowalska in prayer to the Divine Mercy of God);
- The Rosary-Chaplet of the Holy Wounds of Our Lord Jesus Christ; - The Chaplet-Rosary of the Virgin Mary;
- The Rosary to Our Lady of Fatima;
- The Rosary to Our Lady of Lourdes;
- The Rosary to Our Lady of Sorrows;
- The Rosary to St Joseph (this is a 'Rosary');
- The Chaplet of Mercy and Divine Forgiveness;
- The Chaplet-Rosary for Agonizing People (those dying);
- The Chaplet-Rosary for the Souls of Purgatory;
- The Chaplet-Rosary for ALL Souls;
- The Chaplet-Rosary to Holy Souls;
- The Chaplet-Rosary to the Heart of Mary;
- The Chaplet-Rosary in Eulogy to Mary;
- The Chaplet-Rosary of Faith;
- The Chaplet-Rosary of Protection;
- The Chaplet-Rosary to the Holy Wounds;
- The Chaplet-Rosary of Saint Gertrude;
- The Chaplet-Rosary to Our Lady of Perpetual Help (there are two versions of this one actually);
The Chaplet-Rosary to Our Lady of Sorrowful Tears (Notre-Dame des Pleurs);
- The Chaplet to The Crown of the Sacred Heart;
- The Chaplet for the Conversion of the World;
- The Chaplet for Missions;
- The Chaplet to the Holy Trinity;
- The Chaplet to the Holy Face; and,

...ADD to that 'Chaplets' to 'special devotions and intentions':

- Chaplet of Saint Anthony of Padoua;
- Chaplet to Saint Joseph;
- Chaplet to The Infant Jésus;
- Chaplet to/for the Dead;
- Chaplet of the Calvary;
- Chaplet of the Precious Blood;
- Chaplet of the Five Wounds;
- Chaplet (Rosary) of the Seven Dolors of Mary (Les Sept Douleurs de Marie);
- Chaplet for Peace;
- Chaplet to the Archangels Protectors;
- Chaplet to the Angels; and then,

...there are Decade Chaplets (Dizainiers in French) - smaller chaplets and rosaries:
- Chaplet of the Archangel Michael;
- Chaplet of the Archangel Raphaël;
- Chaplet of the Archangel Gabriel;
- Chaplet-Rosary of the l’Immaculate Conception;
- Chaplet of Saint Anne (Mother of Mary);
- Chaplet of Saint Teresa (Teresa of the Infant Jesus);
- Chaplet of Saint Philomena;
- Chaplet of Padre Pio;
- Chaplet of the Holy Sacrement;
- Chaplet of the Sacred Heart of Jesus;
- Chaplet-Rosary of the United Hearts of Jesus and Mary;
- Chaplet to the Holy Face;

...to mention but a few (and I am certain I am forgetting many here!) - AND,
...ALL of these are still extant and valid today and ALL are recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.

In Christ,

Christine

Certainly, the Latin Church has really developed a plethora of chaplets based on the Rosary.

The original Confraternity of the Rosary which was established by Blessed Alain des Roches, as you know, simply applied the rosary decade of an Our Father and ten Hail Mary's to, for example, the nine choirs of Angels, the twelve Apostles, the Five main Wounds of Christ, the Seven Blood-sheddings etc.

The Eastern Churches simply don't have any of this apart from the practice, and that not a universal one, of the Rule of the Mother of God, especially as established by St Seraphim of Sarov and St Seraphim Zvezdinsky at Diveyevo Monastery (saying or even singing the prayers as one goes around the ditch that encircles the monastery).

On Mount Athos and elsewhere, every Hail Mary or properly "Theotokos Virgin Rejoice" is often ended with a prostration ("Monastic Rules" published by Jordanville Monastery).

There were even some Russian saints who prayed the "Rejoice Theotokos Virgin" in place of the Jesus Prayer and were called "Elders of the Theotokos." St Parthenius of the Kiev Caves Lavra prayed 300 prayers daily. St Dmitri of Rostov, in addition to the 150 Hail Mary's, also prayed a form of the Chaplet of the Five Sorows of the Mother of God called "A Tale of the Five Prayers." He also practiced the hourly Hail Mary, night and day - a practice he picked up in Paris where he and many other Orthodox studied during the era of the Kievan Baroque.

The popularity of St Seraphim of Sarov (and his veneration is also growing in the Roman Catholic Church) also meshes with the practice of the Rule of the Mother of God.

Alex

"Personally, I think we can get overworked over details which, although they give an Eastern framework to the devotion, are really insignificant because this is a personal, not a liturgical, prayer."

I agree with Alex here.

I don't understand what the problem is. The Theotokos is the Mother of all Christian souls. What could possibly be offensive about the rosary to a Catholic; be they of Eastern or Western tradition?

Of course, many Protestant sects, evangelicals for instance, say we "worship" Mary, but that is just ignorant parroting.

What objection might the Orthodox have to the Rosary? I don't know, unless it might be something reflexive. Theologically and doctrinally, I can't imagine any real objection, given Orthodox adherence to the Council of Ephesus and its affirmations of the Theotokos, and all that is implied therefrom.

Private revelation though it may be, it has been said by the Theotokos Herself, in many "private" revelations, that the rosary has been given enhanced spiritual power as a potent help for we who live in these troubled times, of the Church and the World. This fact should not be taken lightly, since who can deny that we really ARE in big trouble.

The rosary is also an excellent way to recollect one's self and sort of a "meditation 101" exercise--to block out the distractions of the world and to begin to control the random thoughts that constantly race around in our minds, for the 20-30 minutes it takes to recite the rosary.

Certainly, meditating on the Mysteries while reciting the Angelic Salutation, can't hurt anyone, and it helps to develop spiritual self discipline. It is also very pleasing to Our Lady.

Those attached to Eastern traditions should use them, if not comfortable with the Western Rosary, and use Marian akathists and canons from Eastern tradition.

Intentions are what the Theotokos is interested in, not rubrics so much, I'd guess. And, who better to appeal to for needed favors from the Son of Man than his beloved Mother, He who said from the Cross,"Son, behold thy Mother, Mother, behold thy son"

Something I heard recently gave me the heebie jeebies about those "Luminous" (Gnostic) mysteries. Never liked them, never used them. Some sort of "magic light" is a recurring theme in gnostic systems. This is totally western-please bear with me, for what this may (or may not) be worth.

At Fatima, Mary told the children to recite a third of the rosary daily, that is 5 decades, that is, 50 Hail Marys. The complete rosary is 15 decades--150 Hail Marys.

Adding the "luminous mysteries," (an artificial man made alteration imposed on an age old devotion quite illicitly, like the NOM itself, in fact; beyond the limits of the power of even a pope) changes the complete rosary to 20 decades from 15, and therefore 200 Hail Marys from the age old number 150.

So, Our Lady's instruction to recite "a third" of the rosary each day would now require one to say, well, 66.6 Hail Marys a day.

Uh oh, 666 is a bad number, and not a sign that any pope should want to be associated with in any way, certainly. Causes for sainthood have been abandoned for much less.

Perhaps he was unaware. Islam, Hinduism, nature worship--hey, what the heck, they all have "elements of sanctity," right? Satanism too, why not? We no longer condemn or anathematize. We have to make a lot of allowances for them, right?, as well as for the scandalous words and acts of "popes" and "saints" these days anyway. We're used to it.

All I can do is to quote, paraphrase actually, a most unambiguous Christian: "Those with eyes to see, let them see; those with ears to hear, let them hear." "The shepherd knows His sheep and the sheep know their Shepherd, and will not follow a hireling."

And will shun the Gnostic Mysteries.

You are really stretching the conspiratorial imagination here.. as you stated one post above, if the Rosary isn't offensive be it Eastern or Western, why would an extra 5 prayers/devotions suddenly make it offensive, demonic, gnostic or whatever?

The Rosary is a quasi-private devotion, Fatima a private revelation, the Pope's 5 additions a personal choice of a private devotion. Heck one could even stretch your conspiracy even further, spin it positively and say the 66.6 Rosaries overturns demonic forces.

In fact, the Luminous Mysteries relate to Eastern Christian spirituality.

Christ the Light-giver is a very important spiritual theme in the Christian East and relates to the Resurrection, Pentecost and the glory of the Most Holy Theotokos and all the Saints.

In addition, the Byzantine mysteries of the Rosary, as practiced by Orthodox saints such as St Seraphim of Sarov, have always contained two or three of the Western Luminous Mysteries.

The Theophany of our Lord and the Transfiguration - both VERY important to the East as they are epiphanies of the Most Holy Trinity. The miracle at the Wedding at Cana where Our Lord manifested His Divine Power and then His public ministry, ending with the Mystical Supper . . . "Gnosticism?" Only if one believes the New Testament as a whole is a Gnostic document.

The traditional Latin opposition to the Luminous Mysteries, in my personal view, reflects the different Soteriologies of East and West in the final analysis.

To be against the Luminous Mysteries would also suggest one would be very much against the spirituality of the Christian East.

Also, in no way did St John Paul II "impose" the Luminous Mysteris on anyone.

I've done my own homework in this regard and have queried a number of Catholic theologians who affirm that one is free not to use them. At no time in his document did the Pope ever say one is forced to use them.

But with twenty mysteries of the Rosary - the fact is that this also rings positively to Eastern Christian ears where the Psalter of David, upon which the Rosary is based, is divided intow 20 sections or "kathismata" in the Byzantine (and also the Chaldean) traditions).

Also, the idea that the Rosary was, at any time in its history, somehow limited to fifteen decades only, can be easily disproven by the well-worn practices of the Rosary Confraternities of Europe (and also of Recusant Britain). Rosaries of 9 decades for the nine choirs of Angels, 14 decades for the Stations of the Cross, 12 decades for the 12 apostles, seven decades for the Joys and also the Sorrows of the Theotokos, together with the seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross and the seven Blood-sheddings, five decades for the five main Wounds of Christ etc. - all show how flexible the Rosary decade format truly is.

Religious Orders, such as the Franciscans, the Carmelites and the Servites have likewise adopted not the Dominican 15 decade rosary, but their own chaplets - and who would dare say they were against the Rosary?

Likewise, some don't like any change to the age-old tradition of the Rosary as if to suggest the form we have today in the West is the ancient, unchanged form. But history shows this not to be true as well.

The Hail Mary itself underwent a number of alterations and the form the Latin West has today only came into being with the Dominican Pope St Pius V. Prior to that, the Psalter of our Lady (it is very true the great Latin Saints of the Rosary didn't like the term "rosary" but preferred "Psalter of our Lady") was prayed in a number of different ways - some of them, like the Golden Rosary used five decades only.

And St Louis Montfort NEVER intended to limit the Rosary to 15 decades, but as he outlined in his True Devotion to Mary, he recommended additional decades, such as the six or seven decades in honour of the years the Mother of God lived on earth.

St John Paul, a great devotee of Montfort himself, took the Luminoius Mysteries from the practice of the Maltese priest, St George Preca who preached these additional mysteries as a way to deepen his flock's appreciation for the words and miracles of Christ during His public ministry.

And while the pope did not impose them on anyone, he did recommend that they be prayed on Thursdays for those in the practice of praying five decades daily.

I pray more than five decades daily so I hope I am not disobeying our Lady of Fatima in that regard . . .

Finally, given the fact that various Mysteries have been used in the praying of the Rosary over the centuries, the use of the Luminous Mysteries is simply that - an alternative set which need not upset the number of 150 Hail Marys (actually, 153 taken from the 153 fish counted by the Apostles in the Gospel of John after the Resurrection of Christ our Lord - the number "153" represents, according to some, the term "children of God").

Alex

I can't help wondering how many people have visited Lourdes and looked at the Statue of Our Lady in the Grotto.

Yes - she is holding a Rosary - but which one ?

Alex,bearing in mind one that came to me from you - you are not allowed to answer my question

66.7 you mean.

Not even that. A third of the Rosary remains 50 Hail Marys. The Luminous Mysteries are an optional replacement for the Joyful Mysteries on Thursdays.

Well, yes. The post was sort of tongue in cheek. The actual number is 6.666666666666667. Yes, they are optional. Thankfully. I hate novelties. Just an old stick in the mud. And I am not an one who thinks the end of the world is at hand, and the number 666 is a mystery, as the Apocalypse makes clear. Hope nobody got offended.