www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Catholicism and "showing the love of Jesus."

It's been awhile since I've posted on this forum. God has blessed my wife and I with a healthy pregnancy that is approaching its 32nd week, and I am also on my third deployment at sea.

I’ve always enjoyed the level of fairness and responsible freedom on this venerable Christian forum.

I have undergone virulent doubts and challenges to my Faith- severe spiritual roller coasters on a weekly basis- to the point that I am a border-line "Blind Watchmaker deist" who retains a Christian identity. My Faith in Catholicism has been absolutely rocked to the core- but I will save that for another post. I desperately need spiritual healing and guidance.

Two realities about Pope Francis' vision of pastoral leadership and ecumenism have me absolutely doubting the necessity of Catholicism for salvation. One occurred after his meeting with powerhouse Evangelical leaders in June 2014 in Rome. According to a major non-denominational figure, Pope Francis made this startling remark: “I’m not interested in converting Evangelicals to Catholicism. There are so many doctrines we will never agree on. Let’s be about showing the love of Jesus.”

The second occurred with the tragic death of Tony Palmer, an Anglican bishop and a close personal acquaintance of Pope Francis. As Cardinal Bergoglio, he instructed his good friend to not seek conversion to the Catholic Faith:

At one point, when Palmer was tired of living on the frontier and wanted to become Catholic, [then-Cardinal] Bergoglio advised him against conversion for the sake of the mission.

“We need to have bridge-builders”, the cardinal told him.

In the reigning “spirit” of Vatican II, is it necessary to be Catholic? Does the Catholic Church even believe in itself? I think this is the root of my spiritual cancer.

Source:
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2014/07/pope-francis-and-the-evangelicals/

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/wor...-lives/v7y0x8NglzPe6oNWoXIKdJ/story.html

Well, certainly Pope Francis, as a Cardinal, didn't say anything other Catholic leaders haven't said.

But it isn't, let us be clear, a question of watering down the need to become Catholic etc.

It is about approach.

Ecumenical talks with Evangelicals et alia have failed miserably - they were and are a waste of time.

A much better thing is to work together on moral and other projects, manifesting Christ to the world. The Ven. Archbishop Fulton Sheen once said that the American Evangelicals "do much to make Christ visible" to the American and international public. It would be important to work together on that.

Also, talk really is cheap. It is not enough to prove that Catholicism or Orthodoxy is the true faith without living it and demonstrating the much more conclusive "proofs" that come from "by their fruits you will know them."

I've worked with Evangelicals and I've seen some of them come to the fullness of the Catholic Church (also, I've seen others become Orthodox Christians and even Orthodox priests).

Arguing points is simply not the way to go - it gets everyone's back up against the wall. Conversion is a function of the Grace of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit Himself working in our lives. Such Grace is made open to others by having actual contact with those who ware His Temples. Others see and experience the Spirit by seeing Him at work in our lives.

As for the Anglicans, I've had the privilege of working with Anglicans for more than twenty years, and also being a sponsor for a couple who have become Catholics of the Ordinariate.

I am convinced that Pope Francis is right here insofar as the Ordinariate people, while it is good they have found their home in Catholicism (and also those in Western Rite Orthodoxy), they are not the "bridge" between Anglicanism and Catholicism that is needed today. The same can be generally said of Eastern Catholics, since Orthodox tend to see us somewhere between "traitors" to Orthodoxy on the one hand and "victims" of Rome's "creeping uniatism" on the other.

As an Archbishop in Latin America, Pope Francis earned and got the highest respect and esteem from the Evangelicals and the Anglicans there (not to mention the Jewish community).

We can and should learn from him in terms of ecumenical method. His is the best and the one that bears the greatest promise for Christian unity in future.

Alex

Thanks for your response. I genuinely am confused as to spiritual direction. It just seems that the modern Catholic Church does not believe in itself, so I've found it difficult to believe in it anymore.

I wonder if the Pope at least has encouraged these Evangelicals to cease and desist their conversion efforts in Catholic nations, especially in Latin America, where tens of millions of Catholics have abandoned the Church. These Evangelicals believe they are saving heathens, not fellow Christians.

I think the idea is the conversion to Christ. Alex just inspired me to re-read a speech by a Coptic Monk on Unity, steering away from any kind of theological/canonical rhetoric. I found it quite intriguing, and inspiring.

Well, there was a situation where some extreme Evangelicals were attacking an image of the Blessed Mother - the Evangelical alliance or the umbrella group for them in Latin America came out and condemned them for that act. They would never have done that had Pope Francis not built some bridges with them.

May I ask which Church are you thinking of eventually joining then?

Alex

Dear Lester,

You are more than correct - Egyptian Christians will never "Copt out" when it comes to some real Christian conversion beginning with self . . .

OK, that was bad . . .

I am always inspired by the Coptic devotion to their Horologion/Agpeya.

I'm about to begin the Midnight Hour, if you care to join me.

Alex

compline? I'll definitely join you, in solidarity! Right after Roman Hurko Vespers.

Hi. Could you clarify what you are referring to here? Are you claiming that full communion with Rome is a requirement for admission to heaven?

Well, depending whether you count the SSPX.

I don't - do you?

But I admit that growing up in the post-Vatican II era left me very confused as a Catholic . . .

Never knew what got into you Latins . . .

Alex

The Catholic Church is like the Russian Empire: too big to govern effectively.
The Catholic system is an elaborate system. Sometimes one cannot see the forest for the trees, but the whole purpose of the system is to focus clearly on Christ. There is just too much detritus collected over the centuries, addressing specific historical problems, which we are still left with as some kind of definitive body of teachings.
Look at Matthew XXV, there were are not judged on our beliefs, but on how we treated the poor, sick and imprisoned.
Look at Matthew VII:1-3, and He lets us off the hook if we do not judge.
Look around you, you will not doubt there was a Fall.
The Lord will use the hands of whomever is willing...in many cases Evangelicals...many of whom embraced the Catholic church since it fills in many lacunae in the Evangelical system. (The number who have become Orthodox are quite small in comparison, they just stand out more.) Ecumenism as we see it is something for specialists, but they tend to go around it like union negotiators. What is most important is what one thinks of Christ.
So when I focus on Christ, more of the complexities fall into place. When I acknowledge my sinfulness and pray for repentance, He comes into focus more clearly.
You may not know I am a Catholic ROCOR lurker, but the important thing is to focus on Christ, and not to be preoccupied with what some other person may be doing or saying.

Orthodox Catholic,

When I am on land, I attend the ordinary Roman Rite parish where my wife and I were married. She is a fairly religious woman, and she attends what is comfortable and familiar to her- nothing odd about that.

Unfortunately, regardless of the ordinary Roman Rite parish we attend in our metropolitan area, I can’t find peace. I typically experience a range of emotions, from outright bitterness to emotional detachment. I often find myself with clenched fist in the pews, and that is saddening for me. I am a young man- it’s not like I’m some hold-out codger.

I just can’t find peace. My wife is religious, but she doesn’t really understand these matters. She is your normal Roman Catholic, and there is nothing wrong with that, but she just doesn’t take interest in these concerns. Football takes precedence there :-)

I took her to the local Byzantine Catholic parish once, but I don’t know if she was comfortable or welcoming of this “exotic” (I’d say spiritually exquisite) divine worship. I even requested a change in rite to salvage my foundation in the Catholic Church, but I was told by the priest that this was unwise, as it would potentially introduce spiritual division in the marriage. So I did not pursue the matter.

I used to attend this parish every other weekend, or I would make time to attend the FSSP-staffed Mass, but I also ceased attending that after a while. After a time I saw these parishes as spiritual band-aids for otherwise gaping wounds. In general, I probably wasn’t attending for the right reasons. I did not wish to dishonor God or these sacred, venerable, ancient rites of divine worship by hauling my baggage to these temples of God.

So, I attend church with my wife, and I utter the passages by rote. I’ve simply lost the conviction. I feel extraordinarily spiritually bare- lush forests to barren deserts.

Lester, can you directme to this Monk's sermon/speech? It sounds intriguing. Thanks!

In a word ... No. So I'd have to agree with you that Pope Francis didn't say anything other Catholic leaders haven't said.

Thanks for the info. When did I become a Latin? I seem to be a little behind the times.

I wasn't referring to you Peter - I wouldn't offend you in that way . . .

Alex