www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Venerations of Saints - special cases of our modern world. . .

Greetings everyone!

It dawned on me that perhaps some 'conflicts' could be created in terms of the veneration of some Saints. . . - here is an example:

St Joan of Arc (venerated by many Christian traditions) is officially the Patron Saint of ALL allied Christian forces since WWI. Now, this means that for: France; Canada; the USA; and the United Kingdom - to begin - she is the Patron Saint of all their respective armies, navy and air force combined - and the combination of them all as a group of allied nations when they engage in wars or missions. . .

St Louis of France, who was a 'Crusader' [although he never engaged in the Crusade battles himself], is by 'extension' a second Patron of soldiers as well. . .

So... TOGETHER - in many cases - they are the Patrons of allied soldiers.

Now, here is my question: While these saints are mainly Roman Catholic in origin in terms of their canonization and veneration, what happens when it comes to lets say... the Ukrainian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox churches in these countries who have accepted these Saints as the Patrons of their national defense forces? Do they 'venerate' these saints as well as they are accepted by the nations they are in as Patrons of soldiers?

I do know that some Anglican churches in Canada have stained glass windows of St Joan of Arc dressed in full armour as a portrayal of her as Patron Saint of soldiers even if she is a canonized Roman Catholic Saint ...possibly some protestant confessions (Anglican communion) recognize her as well. . .

In one case, St Thomas Anglican Church in Toronto, Canada two side-by-side windows of these two Saints are located in stained glass war memorials. Although, this church was once a Roman Catholic English Church, the windows were never removed. . . It is an extremely RARE set of windows where these two Saints are depicted side-by-side (rare in itself) - AND - dressed in their full battlefield dress (Armour and garments, with swords - and St Louis with a shield as well).

Would a religious tradition honour such Saints who were not initially 'venerated' by their tradition as Patron saints of the national defense forces in the nations where they are while these countries respective governments have accepted them for their forces?

I sure would like to know your thoughts on this one. . .

Best,

Christine

Christine,

Welcome to the forum.

Eastern and Oriental Christians, neither Catholic nor Orthodox, typically do not venerate Saints of the Latin Church and certainly don't do so publicly, as in conducting public devotions. However, you can certainly find individuals who have a personal devotion to a particular saint who is not of their own tradition. (Such are, most often, particularly well-known Saints, such as Francis).

Likewise, you'd find relatively few Latins venerating Saints from the Eastern or Oriental Christian traditions, the vast majority of whom would be unfamiliar to them.

There are, of course, some Saints from the early centuries of Christianity who are publicly venerated in both East and West.

In regards to the particular example that you discuss, I feel pretty certain that most Eastern Christian soldiers, Catholic or Orthodox, would look to Saint George the Great-Martyr as their patron.

Many years,

Neil

Well, actually, that is not correct. I can think of a number of occasions when Eastern Catholics have had public devotions for a Roman Catholic saint. Among them:

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux: www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPVWDj-pgTQ [youtube.com]

Saint Anthony of Padua: http://mgce.uz.ua/photogallery.php?album_key=1432

Saint Pio of Pietrelcina: http://www.credo-ua.org/2013/01/75553

Blessed Teresa of Calcutta: http://www.mgce.uz.ua/iphotogallery.php?album_key=867&lang_id=2

P.S. Welcome back!

Dear Christine,

The governments involved would not declare any one saint patron of anything, of course - it would only accept the church tradition and/or public acclaim in that instance.

The Anglican tradition honours St George and St Michael as the patrons of military forces as do many Orthodox Churches (Russia honours St Andrew as patron of their navy and their naval flag bears a St Andrew's Cross - Russian sailors are given medals to wear that depict an anchor on which is the icon of St Andrew the Apostle).

Orthodox Churches do not accept St Joan of Arc or St Louis into their calendars and have no public liturgical veneration of them - it is not even an issue for them at all.

But the best patron of soldiers is our common ancestor - St Alexander Nevsky!! Wouldn't you agree?

Alex

Dear Griego Amiego!

Very nice!

The article on St Pio is interesting as it asks the question "Why are these Greek Catholics so devoted to a Western saint?" put by a Capuchin Friar who visited that UGCC parish where he saw the image and relics of St Pio and how the Greek Catholics were so strongly devoted to him (there are also the images and relics of the Blessed Redemptorist Hieromartyrs and of St Charbel Makhlouf, as we can see).

The bishop who served the Divine Liturgy emphasized St Pio's "closeness to us" through his suffering, through his acceptance of life's crosses etc. He added that the people will have a great miracle-worker as their patron.

St Therese of Lisieux, of course, has been honoured by the Russian emigres in France and elsewhere, both Orthodox and Catholic, no surprise there

The cultus of St Anthony of Padua has always been strong among Greek Catholics as the patron of things lost.

Orthodox parishes would often adopt certain icons/images of the Mother of God as their own, as well as devotions. Our Lady of the Scapular at Horodyshchensk Orthodox parish, noted by Poselianin, is one example. "Our Lady of the Grapes" or the Mother of God of Domedovsk near Moscow is another (the Orthodox nuns honour that Western painting as a local shrine and say the grapes in it underline our Lady's connection with Holy Communion etc.

Also, Greek Catholic prayer books that I have collected over the last few years published in Ukraine contain prayers to Orthodox Saints such as St Seraphim of Sarov and others. One prayer book that I have has so many such prayers that I had to check the front to see whether this wasn't an Orthodox prayer book I was using .

Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .

One thing I really do appreciate about being Greek Catholic is that there is a wonderful borrowing of both Western and Eastern traditions that I find so very enriching.

My ancestors on my father's side came from the town in which St Joan of Arc was born and their coat of arms has a Cross of Lorraine. So naturally I include a Cross of Lorraine with St Joan on my neck chain . . . how could one not?

That's why EC's there won't be able to unite with the Orthodox - we're not going to give up all these Western devotions! (Forget about it!)

Cheers,, Alex

Let me rephrase that


I don't find the iconic images of St Pio (or even that of St Sharbel) to be appropriate to a Byzantine temple - particularly when both icons are larger than those of the Byzantine martyrs who are also commemorated iconically.

Many yeats,

Neil

I think I remember Russian lining up in large numbers when the relics of St. Therese were on tour in Russia in the previous decade. Very few were Roman Catholics, I suppose.

I believe I still have an old issue of Sophia magazine in which the Melkite Catholic Church announced the addition of Saint Sharbel to the Melkite liturgical calendar. So, if the Melkites don't have a problem adding him to their liturgical calendar, then there isn't a problem seeing his icon showing up in Melkite parishes.

Dear Brother Neil,

That is the problem you see. You never know what those UGCCers will do next!

Alex

Alexander Nevsky is definitely a Patron saint of soldiers of Russia I am pretty certain of this - he is also on many of their military honours and decorations... There I would agree... In my original post I was referring more to countries of the 'allied nations' which allied themselves in WWI and later in WWII more when it comes to St Joan of Arc and St Louis of France to begin... but the 'problem' lies when it comes to joining forces with other countries in armed conflict - would they then become Patrons of their soldiers too during such joint efforts?

Also, in today's world there are many soldiers who are not Christians who participate in our armed forces... - How does one resolve this for them as these Patrons of Soldiers are for ALL our allied forces... ???

While England has St George as national Patron Saint, I am CERTAIN it also 'officially' adopted St Joan of Arc as Patron Saint of Soldiers during WWI as posters of her were produced in England during this time as patron of Allied Forces (of which England was a part of). You problably can find some of these posters on FLICKR website under the group managed by 'Codi' under: 'Saint Joan of Arc Superstar' as she had the largest collection online of images pertaining to St Joan of Arc.

St Anna of Novgorod (Born: Princess Ingegerd Olofsdottir of Sweden - and, mother of: Anna Yaroslavna, Queen of France) is also a powerful intercessor against war. . . She is Patron Saint of Sweden and Patron Saint of Russian borders (However, as she is my 30th great-grand-mother, I pray her to keep the Russian army away from Ukraine and for the Russian army to lay down their arms!).

When it comes to an entity such as a state or country 'declaring' a particular Saint as their Patron it varies according to the timeline in history as well as the regime in place at the time. . . Here is a very good example:

St François-Xavier de Montmorency-Laval (my 13th cousin) who was First Bishop of Quebec and of North America (above the Spanish colonies), asked the Pope during his time to allow the 'veneration' of the Holy Family (basically to have them declared 'officially' as 'Patron Saints' of the early French colonies which later became Canada). When he was made Bishop of Quebec, he had sworn 'allegiance' to the French King, Louis XIV. In so making his request, he was also doing this on behalf of the King of the time... which meant that such a grant to this request would make it a 'state' official declaration as well. Aside this, St François de Laval (as he is also known) was also for a period a 'Viceroy' or Governor of New France with full authority over the colony in the King's name in all matters - hence, here, it was not the 'Church' making this request alone here... it was the 'state' as well. . .

Later, when the Vatican granted this 'official veneration' (I do not know WHEN exactly), the name of Laval was mentioned in the Papal Bull for having requested this. . . This is how it came to be that St Joseph became an 'official' Patron Saint of Canada while today many ignore the FACT that it is actually the ENTIRE Holy Family: The Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God, St Joseph and Our Lord, Jesus who are ALL Patron Saints of Canada.

The church where St François de Laval was Bishop has ALWAYS retained the 'status' of 'First Church' of Canada even after the British regime took over. The 'Patrons' of the 'land' were kept and to this day are still the Patrons Saints of Canada. Many sites on the Internet state that only St Joseph is Patron Saint of Canada but this is actually an ERROR as it is the ENTIRE Holy Family which is Patron Saint of Canada.

The medal which was struck for St François de Laval this year to mark his canonization on April 3, 2014 has the Holy Family (flanked by two angels) on the reverse side of it because of this. . . Officials and historians at the Basilique-Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Québec are well aware of this history which was uncovered in the course of the canonization process of St François de Laval. [Oh! and before I forget... in English, his name is NOT St Francis de Laval but officially remains as: Saint François de Laval or the longer form of his name: Saint François-Xavier de Montmorency-Laval - hence, his first name ALWAYS retains the French format of the spelling which is on the official prayer cards produced by the Basilica-Cathedral which is his major shrine. . .]

Some countries have as their 'official' Patron Saint individuals via 'cultus' veneration well before the Vatican ever made them their official Saints and so it was actually the 'state' (the people) which recognized them as their 'Patrons' well before then. . . Some which come to mind are: St Anna of Novgorod and St Olof (Olaf), King of Sweden (Father and daughter who are BOTH Patrons of Sweden - not to be confused with St Olaf of Norway who is a different Saint); St Stephen of Hungary; St Cunegund (for Luxembourg and The Netherlands); St Willibrord (For The Netherlands again); and a few more. . .

So, I must 'differ' with you on the 'state' official recognition here for their Patrons as it is NOT always the church (or Vatican) which assigns them as Patrons of countries. It can of course receive an 'entrenchment' by the Vatican afterward or the state-recognized Church to make it 'official' [Such as the Church of Holland (of The Netherlands)] (which has happened many a time).

Best,

Christine

Dear Christine,

How fascinating! I never heard this about the Holy Family as patron of Canada! I know that St Anne is likewise a patron of Canada (and the Jesuit Martyr-Saints are "secondary patrons").

Certainly, states can and have petitioned Rome for patronal saints - usually through the national Church. But you are right - King Richard himself declared St George the patron of England.

The Crown in that case is the state. The people certainly are not, even though popular devotion is the "vox Dei."

I love St Francois de Montmorency Laval! You are so lucky to be related to such great saints!

Cheers, Alex

Thank you for your kind words Alex. . .

YES - absolutely, St Anne (mother of the Virgin Mary) is ALSO a Patron Saint of Canada. Her major shrine in Canada is in Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré, Québec, Canada where many miracles were said to have happened. The walls there were covered with crutches, etc. of people who were cured - they had to remove many and put some in storage there were so many. The shrine bears the SAME name: Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré ...as the small village there and was first built when a ship sank during a major storm long ago and by what the people consider a miracle of the time, ALL the people were saved or survived the treacherous waters. For this grace, the people built this monumental shrine in honour of St Anne. Saint Pope John Paul II went to visit this shrine and the spot where he knelt has been marked into the marble floor. . .

The Jesuit Martyrs and their companions - eight (8) of them – have ALL been canonized on June 29, 1930 in Rome by Pope Pius XI and are ALL considered ‘Saints’ and, quite correctly, they are ALSO Patron Saints of Canada although as 'Saints' no one refers to them as 'secondary.' Their names are:

- St. René Goupil (1642) – was a surgeon and then became a ‘donné’ (which means ‘given to God’ – ‘donné’ were ‘lay’ very close collaborators of the Jesuit missionaries); he became a Jesuit Priest and pronounced his vows as priest a short time before his death while many people erroneously state he was not a priest when actually he was!;
- St. Isaac Jogues (1646) - Jesuit Priest;
- St. Jean de La Lande (1646) [Many people misspell his name as: ‘Lalande’], was a ‘donné’ missionary – the ONLY one not a priest at the time of his death.;
- St. Antoine Daniel (1648) - Jesuit Priest;
- St. Jean de Brébeuf (1649) - Jesuit Priest (I recall as a child learning how he suffered one of the most horrible deaths among these martyrs);
- St. Noël Chabanel (1649) - Jesuit Priest;
- St. Charles Garnier (1649) - Jesuit Priest; and,
- St.Gabriel Lalemant (1649) – Jesuit Priest

…their major shrine is in the town of Midland, Ontario, Canada.

Relics of ALL the Canadian Saints as well as Beatified (Blessed) individuals of Canada can be found in the Basilica-Cathedral Notre-Dame-de-Québec -- this includes Canadian Saints and Blessed who are NOT official Patrons of Canada. There are also relics of these individuals in other locations in Canada as well but as 'First Church' of Canada, the Basilique-Cathédrale Notre-Dame-de-Québec holds relics of ALL Canadian Holy individuals.

PLEASE NOTE: in French when you indicate the name of physical or legal entity which contains the name of a PERSON (even Holy individuals such as Saints, etc.) - i.e., for use for: a place [street, physical building or structure (a church, shrine or religious site); a monument; mountain, a park, a river or a lake] - you MUST use hyphens across the ENTIRE name except for the 'designation' i.e., Cathedral; Basilica; Basilica-Cathedral; Church; Parish; Diocese; avenue; street; etc., etc. - this is a rule of grammar to distinguish 'people' from 'objects' (things). While even Wikipedia and MANY sites online make this fundamental ERROR on MANY of their posts, the case of the Basilica-Cathedral in Québec City might be one of RARE 'exception' as an ERROR may have been made when the official registration of the new name of the CHURCH (Building itself) was done. I am currently in the process of VERIFYING with the Diocese of Québec as it spells the name of it as: Basilique-Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Québec [with NO hyphens between 'Notre-Dame' and the word 'de' and again between 'de' and 'Québec' which in my opinion is an ERROR which is even listed on the the Website of the Basilica-Cathedral itself! - and, if PROPER rules of grammar for toponyms, etc, were applied it should rather be: Basilique-Cathédrale Notre-Dame-de-Québec WITH hyphens throughout (HOWEVER, by exception, they may have registered it with THIS particular spelling error and this was a 'mistake' made at the time of registration as a 'parish' is a LEGAL ENTITY AND the building (the physical Basilica-Cathedral itself) is a BUILDING - and, evidently, these are 'things' and NOT a PERSON... and NO ONE noticed this mistake until I raised the question as I am a stickler when it comes to indicating names properly in historical accounts - the question as to the name of the proper registration of the BUILDING: Basilique-Cathédrale Notre-Dame-de-Québec is being analyzed at this time to see if on the ACTUAL registration papers [when it changed name officially from Notre-Dame-de-L'Immaculée-Conception (Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception)] was actually wrongfully registered in terms of grammar - and if so, if it was, the 'official' name would have an error entrenched into it for all time to come on the LEGAL papers... and the archivists are currently digging up the historical papers to get to the bottom of this question. On the current phone directory (beside the new name) and in old documents, the former names is clearly: Notre-Dame-de-L'Immaculée-Conception (so this rule was observed for this...). The PARISH is registered as 'Notre-Dame de Québec' and you will see this on official copies of documents given for records WITH this error - so this one I do know... So, now, the investigation is for the name of the BUILDING and we shall soon see what comes of this. . . This rule of grammar was NEVER changed by linguists of the Académie Française nor under grammar rules applied in Canada for French names... - so, if error is there, this will be one for the 'annals' of history as an 'exception' to the 'rule.'
I am putting this so people doing research in history concerning French-Canadian places which contain the name of a PERSON, SAINT, etc. know how to apply this rule as MANY Americans and Anglophone people tend to REMOVE the hyphens when they should NOT be doing this as it is a MISTAKE! Also, old French names of nobility often hyphenate the series of family names - i.e., it is: de Montmorency-Laval (the word 'de' in a family name is NEVER hyphenated when you refer to the PERSON THEMSELVES while if it was used in the name of a PLACE or THING it would be!!) - and NOT: de Montmorency Laval or de-Montmorency-Laval.

Best,

Christine

You are right again!

I grew up near the Martyrs' Shrine in Midland and on a farm that was once part of the Huron village of Toanche that became the Mission of St Nicolas.

My parents had difficulty having children and my mother burned many candles at the shrine. I was finally conceived and was born on the day that St Jean de Brebeuf was martyred. Consequently, my middle name is "Jean-de-Brebeuf" (although I never use it).

Near our old farm was also where Pere Nicolas Viel and his associate, Ahuntsic worked for a while before going east and where they were both martyred at Sault au Recollet (do you think they will ever be canonized?). I believe their martyrdom is depicted in stained glass in a Basilica somewhere in Quebec.

Near Midland is the Church of Ste. Anne (with a copy of the same image of Ste Anne that is at Ste Anne de Beaupre). In front of it is a statue of Father Joseph Le Caron, also of the Recollets, although his canonization process never went forward.

Then there is Fr. Anne de Noue SJ who was frozen to death on the banks of the St Lawrence as he went to give the Last Rites to a dying Native person. He was found, as you know, the next morning in a kneeling position with his arms crossed and his open eyes gazing toward heaven . . . He was included among the eight other Jesuit Martyrs, but was later taken off the list.

And the Canadian Martyrs are indeed officially referred to as "Secondary Patrons" of Canada. I didn't make that up!

Alex

Yes - I believe you! ...I never said it was not true... it is just that out of respect for ALL 'Saints,' French-Canadian Catholics especially generally never refer to them as 'Secondary Patrons' of Canada but consider them 'spiritually equal' to other Saints (aside the Holy Family of course - and in this respect they would be 'secondary' for sure) so to speak ...if you can get what I am driving at here. . .

OK, you are right.

Does it still hold true that the Catholics of Quebec normally take "Joseph" as a second name, if a boy, and "Marie" as a second name, if a girl? (Speaking of "secondary . . ").

Alex