www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Another UOC-MP parish moves to the Kyivan Patriarchate

Dear Charles,

I apologise to you, sir, if in any way I have either offended or annoyed you.

Learning to keep my big mouth shut is an important aspect of Christian formation, to be sure.

Cheers,

Alex

A little OT, but I can't help thinking about how many feared that, if elected president, JFK would "take his marching orders from the pope".

Edit: Not trying to derail, of course.

An acquaintance of mine, an Anglican, said she was going to marry a Roman Catholic - but what problems would they face?

I told them I didn't see any problems - neither Anglicans or RC's want to listen to the pope . . .

The late president may have been among them . . . so it was rumoured . . .

Alex

So on point.

Well I don't know about the rumors, but he said e.g. "But let me stress again that these are my views. For contrary to common newspaper usage, I am not the Catholic candidate for president. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for president, who happens also to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my church on public matters, and the church does not speak for me."

These kinds of articles appear at least weekly in a variety of places on line but there seems to be little to no response from the Kyivan Patriarchate. I'm interested in other resources, in English, on this.

Maybe they don't have a very good IP.

During the height of the 1930s "troubles" which rocked the Ruthenian Eparchy of Pittsburgh which led to the split resulting in the Carpatho Russian Orthodox jurisdiction (the ACROD)', events were routinely reported by two newspapers each named "Messenger" (Vistnyk). One was owned by the Greek Catholic union, the other was initially owned by a "renegade" priest, Father Stephen Varzaly. Anyway, if one reads the archives of each (I think the University of Pittsburgh may have access to them) a similar rhetorical disconnect will be found. One man's scoundrels are another's patriots. Lord have mercy on the faithful of the region.

In fact, the KP does respond to articles by the UOC-MP accusing the KP of forcibly taking over such parishes - there are a number of such articles on the KP website www.cerkva.info [cerkva.info]

Relatives of mine belonging to two such former UOC-MP parishes told me that they and most of everyone else in their parishes peacefully voted in favour of leaving the Moscow Patriarchate to join the KP.

The precipitating factor in one former UOC-MP parish, I am informed, was that the MP priest refused parishioners' requests to serve molebens for the Ukrainian army, for the dead and the wounded.

In both cases, the results of the free elections were rejected by the UOC-MP priests and overseeing hierarch. In one case, toughs came out to prevent the people from entering the parish they had themselves built with their own work and funds to prevent the "takeover" from occuring.

But to no avail in the end.

Such a movement should come as no surprise at all, given the situation in Ukraine and the conflict between Ukraine and Putin's Russia.

The Moscow Patriarchate isn't making things easier on itself either as it has placed outright Russophiles in positions of authority in the UOC-MP including the new Metropolitan who today pays lip service to Ukrainian patriotic causes, including the Holodomor, but who is on record as having said Stalin's man-made famine was something "the Ukrainians brought on themselves as Divine punishment for their sinfulness." Many Russians starved to death at that time as well - supposedly for their sinfulness too . . .

In reality, the Moscow Patriarchate is destined to become the Church of the Russians only and the emergence of a united Ukrainian Orthodox Church and Patriarchate is on its way to fruition.

Ukraine's sad history has taught its people to be divided. Not wishing to obey their own leaders, Ukrainians have formerly had to be under foreign despots.

But that too is changing quickly. The Moscow Patriarchate is simply running out of time and continues to speed up the process of the separation of Orthodox Ukrainians from it as a result of its ill-advised actions to date.

As to whether the EP recognizes the future united Ukrainian Orthodox Church - for Ukraine, it is enough that it will finally have such a Church.

Alex

If these are available in English I'm not finding them. When I click on the English version of the link I see "This publication is available only in Ukrainian or in Ukrainian and Russian".

Sorry I missed your post here.

I did not intend to address the issue of articles in English about this, only about the general topic.

That there are parishes of the UOC-MP that move to the uncanonical KP should come as no suprise.

In addition, it should come as no surprise that the UOC-MP leadership is attacking such moves as being "forced."

This is not to say that one cannot be Ukrainian as a member of the UOC-Mp - in fact, the president of Ukraine is a member of the UOC-MP.

Any articles about this issue, in whatever language, will present its side.

I support the UGCC, the UOC-KP and also the UOC-MP in their efforts to become good citizens of Ukraine.

Force of any kind that is used by one church over another is to be condemned.

The MP and world Orthodoxy has yet to condemn the liquidation of the UGCC in 1946, for starters.

Alex

The EP is very reluctant to establish a jurisdiction in Ukraine and is in communion only with the UOC-MP.

Contrary to what some would seem to promote, it is very much a Ukrainian Church. I can attest to that because they hosted me twice. However, Donbass and Crimea are very much Russian speaking and have never been under Rome, either religiously or politically through Lithuania, Poland and/or Austria-Hungary. The areas that were never under Rome or Catholic countries are virtually all MP. No Orthodox Church recognizes the KP, and although it is promoted by the Euromaidan Government and the Greek Catholics, it is not a recognized Orthodox Church.

There should be no question that the UOC-MP is a Ukrainian church or that one can be "fully Ukrainian" while being a member of it.

However, it is no secret that there is a pro-Russian wing within it (composed of Russified Ukrainians in the first instance) which is at odds with a pro-autocephalous Ukrainian wing (which wants to be in communion with Moscow, but autocephalous).

The pro-Russian wing has gained ascendancy in the UOC-MP following the death of His Beatitude Met. Vladimir. The new Metropolitan is an overt Russophile known for his previous quite anti-Ukrainian positions and for his servile attitude towards the MP and its Great Russian chauvinism.

This wing has all but quashed anyone within the UOC-MP who maintained the attitude of the deceased Met. Vladimir, including Met. Oleksandr Drabenko, who has been long perceived as a threat to the MP because of his pro-Ukrainian stance that is geared toward greater autonomy from Moscow with the ultimate goal of formal autocephaly.

It is, whether we like to accept it or not, inevitable that the UOC-MP, especially under these and other circumstances, would be perceived in less than the best light. The UOC-KP is not recognized by anyone - for now.

It is indisputable that it is gaining momentum as a movement within Ukraine, that the UOC-MP is in trouble along a number of fronts and is losing the PR war (largely because of the authoritarian way in which the MP and its hand-picked leadership of the UOC-MP have been conducting themselves).

The UOC-MP, one could say, was VERY Ukrainina under Metropolitan Vladimir (Sabodan), but now that he is gone, the UOC-MP has come under a very pro-Russian leadership which tries to curry favour with the Ukrainian Orthodox in general with "patriotic actions" which are doomed to failure because it is trying to do two things at once - support the MP and its policies re: Ukrainian Orthodoxy while, at the same time, pretend that the UOC-MP leadership is completely in favour of Ukrainian Orthodox independence/autocephaly.

That there are many, many Ukrainian Orthodox laity, priests and bishops who are just that - Ukrainian - is not in question.

The question is how long those same laity, priests and bishops will put up with what is fast becoming an untenable situation involving the top leadership of their Church.

The war between Russia and Ukraine is not over - neither is the war between Ukrainian Orthodoxy and Russian Orthodoxy.

I predict that the latter war will end sooner than the former with the ROC losing, finally and decisively, in Ukraine. That loss will impact all of Orthodoxy as it will rearrange the structure of power within it.

The MP is in a battle it cannot win in the long term.

Also, if my give my own "Three Cents" worth - your charge that the UGCC somehow "promotes" the KP is wrong.

The UGCC is with other Ukrainian religious and secular bodies that opposes Moscow and its state-run Church, the MP which has demonstrated, once again, that it is only too willing to be a passive and obedient servant to the Russian state and its imperial aims.

The stage is set, however, for the emergene of a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarchate, independent of Moscow, that will unite all Ukrainian Orthodox (and not a few EC's).

Alex

Dear Three Cents,

You are wrong on BOTH counts here. The "Euromaidan" government is headed by President Poroshenko - himself a member of the UOC-MP.

The UGCC is on good terms with everyone and if you have any evidence whatever that the UGCC is "promoting" the KP, please let everyone here know.

If you don't, please do consider issuing an apology (or if that disturbs your peace of soul, you may simply withdraw your ill-advised commentary).

It's the Orthodox Christian thing to do.

Alex

He should apologize for what? Just stated his position and/or opinion and not any different that you can read in plenty of media. Someone is pushing the "politically correct" button here!