www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Ruthenian Choirs?

Glory to Jesus Christ! In my thread about bi-ritual marriage, it was stated that there aren't really any Ruthenian choirs out there. One thing is certain: there aren't any Ruthenian choirs in the state of Washington! Years ago I fell in love with Sergei Rachmaninov's settings of The Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and the All Night Vigil. Since then I have discovered the music of other Russian Orthodox composers such as Chesnokov and Archangelskiy. Most of these compositions are not in Russian but in Church Slavonic. Is it permissible for this music to be sung in a Ruthenian parish since (as I understand it, and I suspect I'm quite mistaken...) the two traditions are so close? And above and beyond it being permissible, is it an authentic musical expression of the Ruthenian church?

At the Ruthenian parish in Spokane the chants were very simple and didn't seem to resemble the Russian Orthodox chants that I'd heard. Is this true everywhere or is what I heard at Ss Cyril and Methodius the product of a small parish doing the best that it can with the singers it has? There isn't a whole lot on the web available for viewing/listening.

It's probably very obvious that I'm confused and ignorant about a lot of Ruthenian traditions and I would like to apologize for that... I guess what I'm trying to ask is "is it licit and desirable for Russian choral music to be sung in Ruthenian parishes or is Russian Orthodox choral music best left to the Russian Orthodox faithful?" If the latter is true, are there any Eastern churches in which it is or something very close to it is sung? I'm a music major/choir nerd... while I will undoubtedly play the organ and direct a choir at a Latin parish somewhere, I would really like to get involved with the music at whatever Eastern parish I end up at. Honestly I must say that the simple chant that I heard at Ss Cyril and Methodius doesn't really do it for me... not after I've heard the beautiful music that has flowed forth from Russia and other slavic nations.

Gavin,

I didn't say there were no Ruthenian choirs out there. I said that, at least, I didn't know of any. Someone who knows more than both of us will correct me if I am wrong. Sorry about that.


Blessings,


Mary Jo

Gavin,
There aren't any Ruthenian choirs in Tennessee, either. I probably will never hear the last of this, but Ruthenian music at our local level is generally horrible. Even our priest says that the Ruthenians have never produced any great composers and are not known for their music. You have to realize that I am an organist, not a singer. Although I play in a Latin Rite church, I often consider the choir as God's punishment on me for my sins. I have my days when I would really like to send them home and just play. So I readily agree that my views are a bit biased. On top of that, we seem to have the greatest concentration of tone-deaf people per square mile on the face of the earth in Tennessee. I often want to cover my ears and run from the church. We have one large family that I generally refer to as "the harpies chorus," since not a one of them can carry a tune. But I have heard - never been there, just heard about it - that Pittsburgh actually has pretty good music. I think when you get to the cathedral level the music improves - it should, they actually have the resources to do it right. But locally, if I want to hear good Russian music I will have to go to the OCA church.

Dear Gavin,

I'm pretty certain there are CD's by Ruthenian choirs available from Byzantine Seminary Press.

You can find a link to them through this website.

CN,

Leave Russian music to the Russians. Rusyn Prostopinije (plainchant) is the tradition of our Church and it is what has enabled congregational singing in our Church while the other Byzantine Churches have all but lost it because of complex choral arrangements. In Pittsburgh Russian Choral music would not be tolerated in a Ruysn parish and would be seen as an insult, as if to say our Prostopinije was not good enough.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Deacon,
I don't think everything has to be an either-or, or that it necessarily has to be taken personally. You can have plainchaint, you can have harmony, and you can also have an occasional choral work. I don't think it is a matter of "Prostopinije was not good enough," but that it is not the only music out there. By the way, I am not advocating doing away with Prostopinije.

You guys are new! Holy Ghost in Philadelphia has cd's available in both English and Slovanic.

Well, not THAT new. I am just out here in the provinces where the Baptist majority wouldn't know a Byzantine if it were bitten by one. Needless to say, there are no Byzantine bookstores here, so I am not always aware of what is available. Is there a website for ordering?

Peter Wilhousky, composer of the famous Christmas standard, "Carol of the Bells," was a Rusyn Byzantine Catholic (born in Passaic, NJ). He is also the arranger of what is perhaps the most famous and moving version of the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" ever created (the version that was made famous by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir) - if you were in High School Choir, you had to have performed Wilhousky's "Battle Hymn" at some point or another... it's a High School Choir "standard!"

Oh... the Byzantine Seminary Press does, indeed, have some wonderful CDs of choral arrangements of the Ruthenian Byzantine Divine Liturgy - I highly recommend the Church Slavonic version... especially if, like me, you grew up with the Slavonic Liturgy. The "Viruju" on this CD is the most inspirational and moving version I've ever heard!

a pilgrim

I think what was meant by the statement about the Ruthenians having no great composers was that they haven't had any Bachs or Mozarts, which is true. And in all fairness, most countries haven't produced anything like those giants. But I didn't realize Wilhousky was Rusyn. I just played the Battle Hymn for a Latin Rite choir last Sunday. I am a little more familiar with Wilhousky's professional career as a musician, than with his origins. I will look into the Byzantine Seminary Press offerings. I certainly have nothing against Byzantine music. I have, on occasion, wanted to eliminate the singers, but not the songs.

Just doing my part to counteract the impression of my Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic people as culture-less hill folk... like him or not, we did, after all, produce Warhol!

a pilgrim (who does not intend to turn this thread into a "what is art?" thing!)

Dear Nerd, there is no reason why only one kind of music has to dominate the Liturgies in North America of any congregation.

We are no longer in the Carpathian Mts. where we have only access to one musical tradition, which was often transmitted because everyone knew the melodies by heart and didn't or couldn't read music. That is not to say that there are not some nice prostopinje melodies. There certainly are, and I love many of them.

But one has to be realistic and at the same time accomodating. I think Fr. Deacon's statement represents a somewhat short-sighted and unaccomodating view. There are other very beautiful congregational music traditions than Prostopinje.

In many places in the Metropolia other than the basic Divine Liturgy chants, no one knows any other prostopinje music as no other services than Divine Liturgy are usually offered, with few exceptions [such as Holy Week, Presanctified, etc.].

If a parish has only a few people left, and there are those who are able to try different music, why not? If the Liturgy is not beautiful, it will not draw others. If that means changing the music to increase its beauty, then go for it.

The OCA has been successful in diversifying its musical use for congregational singing and has in many places completely reversed trends of diminishing congregational music. The OCA has settings of Russian, Carpatho-Russian, Byzantine, Bulgarian, Galician, etc. melodies and integrates these well.

The OCA could similarly have said, we are descended from the Russian metropolia, only one particular version of Obikhod or Court Chant will be allowed. But at St. Vlad's Seminary Professor Drillock labored hard and long to open the musical horizons of the students to the incredibly rich corpus of music that is part of the Byzantine tradition.

Let's face it. In many of the BCC parishes out west of Ohio and Pennsylvania there is no longer even a simple majority of persons who grew up with "only prostopinje".

Prostopinje is not by any means the only Byzantine tradition of congregational singing. Prostopinje itself has musical accretions. The Galician and Rusyn musical traditions often borrowed melodies or parts of melodies from each other.

Part of the Carpathian musical corpus (both Galician Samoylka and Rusyn Prostopinje] uses a set of melodies called "Bulharski" or "Bulgarian" [actually the Galician tradition has preserved more of these tones than Prostopinje] but that is only one example. They often shared root historical Znamenny melodies.

Certainly every Byzantine musical tradition deserves to be preserved and used. At the same time, there is no reason why other beautiful musical usages well within the Byzantine tradition cannot be relied upon for our parishes.

In our parish, for example at Vespers we use a mixture of prostopinje, samoylka, Bulgarian, Kyivan, and Greek melodies.

I completely agree with your assessment of Rachmaninoff. Truly angelic...

While most Rusyn(i.e.Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox parishes use Subcarpathian Rus' Prostopinije, choral music has been used by large eparchial choirs. In 1834, a Great Russian emigre named Constantine Matezonskij fleed Czarist Russia and settled in Subcarpathian Rus'. He was a talented musican and choral director who introduced four-part polyphonic choral music to the seminarians of the Uzhorod-Mukachevo Eparchy. He formed the Harmoniia choir and introduced many choral compositions from the renowned East Slavic composers Bortnians'kyi and Verstovskii. Matezonskij was also a close freed of Rev. Alexander Duchnovich which helped him propagate his Great Russian choral works throughout Subcarpathian Rus'.
While choral music is nice for a "concert" setting, plainchant is most suited for the general population. I have been privledged to have heard many liturgies sung by our immigrant "Baba's and Dido's" here in America and have also witnessed many liturgies sung by the humble villagers of the Mukachevo Eparchial parishes and have never heard such heart-felt congregational singing. Choirs are nice, but when you have entire congregations singing, it doesn't compare.

Ung-Certez

Ung - Certez and others,

Wow, went to bed late last night and no one but the one who started the thread and I had posted on this thread. Get up this a.m. and all of this vital information.

Ung - Certez wrote:

Choirs are nice, but when you have entire
congregations singing, it doesn't compare.

In our little Ruthenian Byzantine parishes here in the NW (Washington State) we do lack the numbers and beauty of what might be experienced elsewhere that is for sure, but we do have spirit and are growing in numbers and experience. The parish I now attend was a mission six years ago. The paint is still drying on some of the buildings. (I do exaggerate there)

By saying that the Ruthenian church didn't really have any choirs or at least not that I knew of, I meant the kind of choir which is a separate group from the congregation itself. Like people singing up in front of the church as in some of the Roman Catholic parishes usually with someone facing the choir who directs. But after checking this out further last night I now know that in our parish the congregation really is the choir So there definitely is a choir and we are it! I agree with others here that the excellent of that depends on how well singing is done, how much work goes into it, and how many people you have actively worshipping. I also meant that in the Ruthenian churches I have attended the Divine Liturgy was sung a cappella. And, I was referring mainly to Washington State where both CatholicNerd and I live. Thanks to all for this information and to CatholicNerd for asking his question.

In the Name of Jesus and the Theotokos,


Mary Jo>who continues to learn.

"I think Fr. Deacon's statement represents a somewhat short-sighted and unaccomodating view."

But it is the truth. People here are upset when you correct something they are doing wrong in Prostopinije, try and introduce Russian chant and you would be run out on a rail. While one might be able to do it in a mission parish out West, why? Why introduce an unneccessary and foreign tradition, when we are having enough trouble keeping our own? Our resources are limited and they need to be concentrated on Prostopinije, becasue if we don't no one else will. (Okay ACROD will too but they are even smaller than us.)

Fr. Deacon Lance