www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Converting from Latin Rite Roman Catholicism to Eastern Orthodox

Dear Peter,

Certainly, you are more than correct.

The Petrine Primacy is different today, for starters. But no Orthodox theologian, no mainstream Protestant theologian either has ever denied that there was an accepted Petrine Primacy centred on Rome in the first millennium.

That didn't prevent a pope from being condemned (Honorius) and others from being reprimanded and even refused sainthood for their lapses (Liberius - although he is a full saint in the East).

But when Honorius was condemned, the Byzantine East only sung the praises of the successors of Peter at Rome all the more loudly.

The estrangement process between East and West was just that - a process. The date of the "final break" set 1054 AD is a superficial one since other Churches in the East (such as Kiev) had very good relations with Rome after this date.

The daughters of St Yaroslav the Wise married RC princes and kings in the West - there is no record of them ever having to have joined the Catholic Church in order to so do. The granddaughter of St Volodymyr the Great married a German prince who soon died and she became an anchorite/hermitess living in a hollow oak tree and is today a Catholic saint.

When Ukrainian Orthodox found out about St Edigna, they began making pilgrimages to her shrine . . .

Although the Orthodox Metroplia of Kiev was under the EP, that influence did not steer that Church away from Rome - the EP's influence was neutered by Turkish domination. To ensure that the Church of Kiev "behaved" loyally towards the EP, Stauropeghial Brotherhoods were empowered by the EP to act as overseers over the Kievan Orthodox bishops (which included both Belarusyan and Ukrainian bishops at that time). The Church of Moscow was considered by the Western-educated and intellectually sophisticated Kievan bishops to be a backwater at that time ("barbaric Muscovy" as St Peter Mohyla and other bishops of the Kievan Baroque habitually referred to it).

This tended to reinforce the Orthodox bishops' resolve to "change patriarchates" and move to Rome. There is copious historical evidence at the time of the Union of Brest (which has been much maligned, unjustly, by Orthodox historians) to suggest those bishops really didn't see much difference, other than of a local Latin one, in a Faith held in common. In any event, they saw the Council of Florence as a normative standard confession of a united statement of faith and praxis - reflected in the articles of the Union of Brest.

And Roman Catholic commentators in contemporary times have read the works of the Kievan Orthodox bishops and teachers of the Baroque era - Sts. John and Paul of Tobolsk, St Joasaph of Bilhorod, St Dmitri of Rostov, St Theodosius of Chernihiv, Bl. Lazar of Chernihiv, St Peter Mohyla, St Innocent of Irkutsk and others - and have commended them as great luminaries of the entire Church etc.

As you know my inclination to go off on tangents (but interesting ones, no? ), I will stop here.

Alex

Dear Alexander,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I am not attempting to provoke a "my Church is true and yours is not" argument.

I do not know who has "genuine" conversions and who does not. I am not privy to those who may be led astray by prelest. I cannot discern the reasons others may be called to a different path.

I do know that we are called to repentance and metanoia.

When I was a Latin Catholic, I had some wonderful priests who provided heartfelt guidance and genuine love.

When I was an Eastern Catholic, I encountered some wonderful priests and monks who embraced me and my family and helped to deepen our journey and life in Christ.

And now, as an Orthodox Christian, I am very close to priests, monastics, and one bishop in particular, who have shown us how to live our faith like true Christians in a fallen and increasingly secular world (though we often fail in this endeavor). I have a spiritual father who truly cares about my eternal salvation...he is a great blessing to me and I thank God every day.

Many blessing to you and your loved ones also.

Glory be to the Life-Giver and Redeemer...our most Sweet-Lord Jesus Christ!

May the Sweetest Lord Jesus envelope us all in His Wounds and His Love!

Amen.

In the 21st century, it may be a moot point whether you are Catholic or Orthodox. To be honest, I am a fence sitter, albeit Catholic by identification.

There are issues we wil never agree on as Churches, that much can be seen. let's be about showing the love of Jesus to the world.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standi...doesnt-want-to-convert-evangelicals.html

Slava Isusu Christu!

Moving to another part of the Vineyard of the Lord or another part of the Body is one which requires discernment and deep prayer along with truly understanding our true reasons for moving on from a tradition, Catholic or Orthodox, we may belong to. If moving to another part of the visible Body of Christ assists us in the process of deification and sanctification in Christ and our conscience calls us to move toward another Apostolic Church we should follow the voice of the Spirit and go in peace.

Unfortunately, in our age of fast-food culture some may change Churches if one does not get what they want from their current tradition and think moving to another Church or ecclesial community would satisfy our spiritual needs. But, often moving to another Church among converts proves to much for them and they will return to their previous tradition or even leave faith altogether. Moving to another Church one or multiple times may be damaging to our soul as it may lead to confusion and distress internally which may cause the person to manifest a lack of integration in their personality and cognitive dissonance.

In the past, I moved from the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church to the OCA and back and it caused me such spiritual darkness to do this that while I loved being in the OCA my heart called me back home to the Ruthenian Church--the spiritual darkness was the feeling of the absence of God and deep confusion over my decision to leave where the Lord planted me. I really believe a person should seek pastoral counseling from a priest in their home tradition before leaving to go to another Church and have a spiritual father to assist them to find out the true internal motivations and intentions for such a move.

Some people leave their original tradition for parish matters, that the parish does not meet their needs, or getting involved in gossip regarding scandals, or ecclesio-political infighting, or after doing a mere cursory critique of their tradition deciding to leave, and so on. This I do not believe is sufficient to warrant a move to another Church and it is clear that while in this age we want spiritual transformation now--it takes real work to overcome challenges in our communities of faith and throwing in the towel may not be what the Lord calls us to do.

All Apostolic Churches call the faithful to a life of holiness and this call to holiness and transformation in Christ takes our cooperation with the work of God in us and through us toward becoming gods by Grace. And it is clear that this great work of deification and transformation in Christ is not accomplished by the mere transfer or move to another Church in the Body of Christ. In my experience joining another Church did not fix the problems I had spiritually and all the time I spent joining another Church could have been spent living the life of Christ and "becoming perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect"--by truly living the Christian life where I was planted rather then Church hopping which caused me to uproot myself and in do doing left me feeling alone and vulnerable along with living in a state of guilt for having left the Ruthenian Church.

Try growing where you are planted and after a year or so of discernment on your internal reasons for leaving your Church, after receiving pastoral counseling and support, then you should feel at peace on moving to another part of the Body.

In the Theotokos,



Robert

What a great response! I do know that while there are different religious traditions in Christianity, once you are baptized in Christ you cannot be baptized again if you change religious tradition.

We have a common basis: CHRIST
We have common rules: the 10 Commandments

We have a duty to treat each other with respect, love and work toward peace upon this blue planet God gave us as a home to live in. We can 'agree to disagree' but when all is said and done, we are one big family of God on earth: mankind - which He created... let us not lose sight of that. . .

It has seemed to me for a very long time that our Orthodox brethern have kept a very strong grasp on their roots, and this has lead to a strong, beautiful flower. I've always found comfort and understanding in the Orthodox approach to faith, and it seems that our Brothers in the East have managed to keep the Church in the center of Community Life, as Christ should be the center of our lives.

Now, I'm a member of a small Eastern Rite, but it has always seemed to me that in spite of all the glory of flowers and roots and branches, Christ Himself instituted One Church with one visible head. So I could never be a part of a Church which does not recognise the primacy of Peter.

I've always found the idea of the "head" to be an apt illustration: The head is reduced by the loss of any of the body's members, and will function poorly with the loss of either of the lungs. There are so many enemies seeking to end the existance of the body all together, it gives me hope when I see us drawing together to overcome the sickness of schism.