www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Vladimir Putin and his Miracle Cross - Calls it a Revelation

As Ronald Reagan used to say - 'Trust, but verify.' Given Mr. Putin's generation was raised in a different world and system than we in the west and given the maxim that actions speak louder than words, pardon my skepticism. But I agree, my skepticism about him is irrelevant towards God's judgment of his, or any man's soul.

But as to politics and words and policies that one may appear to 'like' coming from a secular leader, the Psalmist got it right thousands of years ago when he advised to 'put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.'

Your mere statement that I have a 'log in my eye' is in itself a judgment to say the least - so please keep such words to yourself. Historians can give opinion and 'judge' upon one's historical record and there is NOTHING wrong with this. The invasion of the Crimea by Putin's troops was a breach of International laws and the violation of the borders of a sovereign country. Russia has fueled the conflicts in the East and from the reports of families who's members have been killed there and been reported to me here, I have NO sympathies toward Putin and his thugs! No country which respects itself should support oppressors who go around killing innocent people! The atrocities shall come out later and the world shall find out in due course of time the abominations they have done! They have taken people who have spoken up against them into the bushes and have executed them like mere animals and tried to conceal the evidence! Hundreds of people have disappeared already, a man was taken into the forest and his tongue was ripped out while another was stripped naked and doused with water until he froze to death in the night and I cannot be siding with a regime who supports this type of action - NO! Absolutely NOT! It shall be a cold day in hell before I think of supporting a leader who cannot see to it to stop the illicit armament of thugs in Ukraine as his regime is a covert yet direct supporter and participant to this! Murder is among the Capital sins'! I am NOT going to blindly approve such regime and as a Christian it is our duty to point our serious problems and this is NO 'judgment' and there is nothing wrong with this! We have a DUTY to speak up for the innocent and an obligation as Christians to let such travesties known and come to the aid of those who are oppressed and if you cannot see this it is you who has the 'log' and not I - so, please, keep you public insults to yourself!

Any imbecile who supports a person who thinks that Lenin was a great man - a man who sent millions to the Gulags and caused the death of 8-10 million Ukrainians in the Holodomor [death by starvation] is no friend of mine and far from Christian values indeed! I stand by what I stated about Putin and I shall not change! He has a long way to go in my books before he gains any sort of respect on my part I can most assure you!

I have a CLEAN soul and am a STRONG advocate for the protection of the innocent and human rights and I shall not mince with words and use all the words I can to make people realize that to side with such monsters is to side with the actions of the devil!

I have every right to speak on this issue especially as my family is a DIRECT descendant of the Rurikid Dynasty - within my blood flows the genetic heritage of St Vladimir; St Ol'ha; St Anna of Nodgorod and St Olof of Sweden - St Borys and St Hlib (Gleb) are also my great-grand-uncles of many generations ago. There are 81 Saints, Blessed, Martyrs, Venerable of this line in my family's ancestral branches and I shall invoke the intercession of them ALL for the protection of Ukraine and for Peace to come to it and for Putin to get what he justly deserves for his shortfalls! He must STOP what he is doing - STOP convoys of illicit supplies or arms from going into Ukraine unauthorized convoys which smack of breaches of international laws by their mere crossing without any authority and laugh at the sovereignty of Ukraine as a nation. Putin needs to behave like a Christian before he shall get any sort of 'sympathy' from me and this begins with repenting! His so-called 'revelation' is an affront to Our Lord to use this as a means to acquire any sort of 'sympathy' from anyone - it is an abomination while he does what he is doing! So please! Spare me the garbage you have sent my way - it simply does not wash!

Dear DMD,

Indeed. I've known (and worked) for politicians who represented what one could call "Bible belts" and who spoke about the Gospel like an evangelical preacher. This was all for show and political gain, however. It was quite depressing to find out later about their sordid affairs and also the fact that they didn't go to church and the like.

One such fellow I worked for was going to speak at a Reformed Christian breakfast. The organizers contacted me and said they were inviting him as an exemplary Christian leader. They then asked me about which parish he attended. They never got an answer . . .

Putin is a different case, of course. So are Latin American dictators who use Catholicism to promote social order (or else American evangelicalism if the Catholic priests protest too much).

I won't pretend that we and many Eastern Europeans see him as a neo-Soviet imperialist. We saw Stalin in the same light - and I hope that that isn't considered "judging Stalin" either.

Alex

Dear Christine,

I hope you might consider withdrawing the word "imbecile" from your post.

In fact, Recluse is a VERY zealous Christian who does much good (a lot that he may not even be aware of).

And he is very intelligent. I think that one may indeed support Putin and see in him a Christian leader who is against Western anti-Christian values.

Nothing is cut and dry here, to be sure.

Your zeal is admirable as well.

Alex

No it's not. It is a reference from Holy Scripture. You judged a man's spirituality and I reminded you of the danger of making such a judgment.


There are two sides to every story. But I am not going to get into a political debate with you....been there....done that.


Now you are hurling insults!

Thank you Alex...but alas...I think my zeal oftentimes does more harm than good because it is not always delivered in the gentlest way.

I have a great deal of respect for your holy zeal and insight. Your delivery system seems to be a bit more efficient than mine.

There is a good word for that if you want to think this represent a Christian attitude at all: HYPOCRISY!

Look at yourself before... you began this and I have every right to defend myself as a Christian should for this sort of vile assault upon me! I did not merit this - and - aside that, you KNOW NOTHING about me to be able to pass ANY judgment of my and to do so publicly is highly offensive to say the least! As far as I am concerned, by the very actions and belief which Putin holds, he has no true 'spirituality' and it is high time someone speaks up for such insults against the Holy Cross by using them as nothing more than propaganda to 'elevate' himself in the public eye when many of his ACTIONS speak to the contrary! I can assure you that when a high official tells Putin to 'Get out of Russia' it is because they have 'intelligence' that he IS involved in fueling this conflict by arming the thugs - Putin is a participant to harming innocent people and that in my books is NO spirituality! Our Lord knows my soul better than anyone and He only knows it! I shall stand strong in the defense of the innocent and I shall continue to speak up and frankly I do not care what 'bible thumping' quotes you can use in a dismal attempt to justify any of Putin's actions or him as a person - including his 'spirituality.' He has NONE as far as I am concerned! Aside that, to come out to state that the fact his cross survived this fire as a 'miracle' or 'revelation' while many such metal objects can survive fires depending on a wide array of conditions which are remote from the 'divine' is a serious affront to Our Lord and to use this in a public interview is a travesty to His Name!

Your rage and over reaction is alarming. No one is targeting you with vile insults.

No matter how much you may dislike someone, you cannot read hearts and have no right to claim that they do not have "true spirituality." It is dangerous for you to make this kind of judgment. Perhaps you should talk to your confessor about it.

I am NOT going to retract ANYTHING while he insulted the quality of my own soul and passed judgment upon me in this manner. Sorry. Do not dare to ask me to do such a thing while he has never apologized for this! I have a CLEAN soul! I have crossed the Holy Door of The Basilica-Cathedral Notre-Dame-de-Québec on November 16 and have been without sin since. I am not going to allow someone to 'judge' me while they know nothing about me nor for my efforts to have people see the light of day about Putin. I have STRONG opposition to Putin and to his collusion with the Moscow Patriarchate and how he manipulates 'religion' in an attempt to garner public support or pass himself off as some sort of 'Saint' (even in a subtle manner) by bringing forth and emulating that he received some sort of divine 'revelation' via this cross which 'survived' the fire! This to me is to tarnish Our Lord's Name while his actions are far from Christian! Please! spare me the support of such insult by asking me to retract my statements - which I shall NOT do as NO apology was even made for this garbage! If ye doth not want to judge, do not pass insult nor injury nor judge yourself by asking me this - for, asking me to do this in and of itself is to ALSO pass judgment upon me and fail to come to my defense as well! Side with whomever you like... I cannot trust you as I have sent you information which indicates the line of my family to the Rurikid Dynasty and while you have such information in your hands, you have FAILED to have the courtesy to even reply to me in DAYS and I shall not send you any more as this to me is a 'red flag' and a serious breach of trust while you do not know me and by your own actions prove that you have passed judgement upon me by the very silence of your responses to me in this correspondence. I shall not mince words here - seeing this request to retract is an insult toward me as it is tantamount to siding with the insults which he pronounced against me and hence sanctioning them! Sorry! I cannot do this! I did not attack ANYONE in here personally and spoke vehemently of my opposition against Putin for GOOD REASON and people need to come to grips that the man is a vile hypocrit and there is nothing 'spiritual' about his actions - on the contrary, he washes the good Name of Our Lord in the mud by his so-called 'sanctified' revelations! Someone needs to sound the alarm about this as any Christian should! An apology should have been forthcoming to me as such insult was made to me here PUBLICLY in this forum as a PERSONAL ATTACK toward me and this is uncalled for nor do I merit this! We have a DUTY to point the errors of some people's ways as Christians - I have a responsibility in light of the context of this post to point out the hypocrisy of Putin in this - is ACTION point out that he is devoid of any real Christian spirituality and are an insult to the Name of Christ and I shall not change my stand on this!

“To judge others is a shameless arrogation of the Divine prerogative; to condemn is the ruin of one’s soul: we must try in every possible way to eradicate this vice from within ourselves. If you see someone falling into sin at the very moment of his death, even then do not judge him, because the Divine judgment is hidden from men. Some have fallen openly into great sins, but they have done greater good deeds in secret; so their critics were tricked …”
St John Klimakos

Tryzub Rurikid

We are in the Nativity Fast - both Orthodox and Catholic .

May I humbly suggest that you get up from your chair - go and make a warm drink and take a wee break for an hour or so.

Dear Christina,

Fine - you have represented your position well.

I didn't ask you to retract anything, but to simply not use words such as "imbecile" (I've used such words myself here and worse). It is just that Recluse and I have a history of "yanking chains" here and I think we have come to understand each other and also to appreciate one another. I know that he is no imbecile.

Even though I do get annoyed when he discusses the issue of passing judgement (and I am no spiritual expert on any of that and more), he is clearly called to feel deeply about the issue. And I think the Holy Spirit inspires him in that.

I am doubtless to blame for enflaming passions about this topic and I apologise to the Administrator and the Moderators for having gone down that road - again. One would think that, by now, I would know better.

There is nothing in what you have said that I would disagree with - that is my personal view.

I think we can both agree that name-calling of any kind, under any circumstances, is just not a good thing.

If I have offended you in saying this, please forgive me.

Alex

Please! To state that you did not make any insults is being blatantly blind - read your words again:'Careful with that log in your eye.' - If this is not an insult I do not know why! Now, you further insult me by making statements here that my 'zeal' is alarming - this is nothing less than making a statement which is tantamount that I would be 'deranged' and I beg to differ as your 'propos' here are persistent personal attacks which are totally uncalled for toward me. Putin mus be show for what he is and the world needs to come to grips with the fact that to even demonstrate any semblance that this is a 'revelation' is an abomination against Christ while his actions are far from Christian - and you can stuff his anti-gay rhetoric out the window when he parades in public with naked women and has a behaviour which is highly disrespectful of women to say the least. I shall stop here. I have lost all respect for you and your comments are nothing more than hot air. Leave me alone and STOP attacking me PERSONALLY - my zeal is not 'alarming' and to even try to attempt to portray me as some sort of 'unbalanced' individual by coming out with garbage like this is a further affront which you could have well done without and which I do not merit. I find your attacks are all the more disconcerting as personal attacks are supposed to be forbidden here. People are entitled to their 'opinion' while members must refrain from attacking other members here which now TWICE you have failed to do and I have every right to defend myself against such garbage! I have made NO personal attacks to anyone here until you started telling me, 'Careful with that log in your eye.' and then had the audacity to state that my zeal was alarming! Two PERSONAL insults back-to-back and if you cannot see this for what it is you are definitely blind as you 1) Publicly passed judgment upon me; and, 2) made it look like I was 'unbalanced' mentally because you stated my 'zeal' was alarming. Really! I think you ought to have a HARD look in the mirror for the shear stupidity of it all!

Putin is getting what he deserves and he ought to be uncovered for the dismal failure he is and the instrument of conflict and harm toward innocent people! He supported a regime which went about stripping citizens naked in the streets in the winter cold, a corrupt regime which stole millions while people needed work and much more! NEVER shall I support a man like Putin for the lack of Christian attitude and I as a Christian have an OBLIGATION and DUTY to point out the error of his ways so others do NOT support this delusional demagogue! I am not going to change my mind and you can go 'take a hike'! Do not waste your breath on me - I am blocking your posts! I have had enough of your insults and public injury toward me here! I shall NOT retract any word of what I have stated and anyone who supports Putin is an imbecile!

Thank you!

You tried to 'condemn' me by telling me I had a log in my eye! So please, stop your stupid arrogant and dismal attempts at undermining me by all the quotes you can possibly see to find because it is NOT worth a dime coming from you! You ought to learn about the quotes of my 31st great-grand-father, St Vladimir the Great - that would be an eye opener there!

Recluse is being IGNORED - I have no time for reading such personal attacks which I do not merit for showing the errors of Putin's ways - a Christian CAN point out errors - it is our duty to do so - this condemnation is not a damnation of their souls nor in place of God's judgment and serve a purpose in Christianity. To bring Putin's 'spirituality' into question for the very marks of his behaviour is not a 'judgment' of his soul but to sound the alarm as to the true error of his ways. I shall NEVER side with Putin as long as he oppresses the innocent and is the instrument of conflict which harms them or violates the sovereignty of another country and jeopardizes its peace - NEVER - NEVER - NEVER!

To all the Ukrainians here: if you have ANY self-respect, you would clearly understand the stupidity in supporting a man (Putin) who practically 'reveres' Lenin ...a man who has the blood of 8 to 10 millions Ukrainians and more people whom he sent to the Gulags upon his hands - such 'reverent' admiration is shear folly and as long as Putin admires Lenin and is brainwashed in such thinking that somehow there was something 'right' in all this, I shall be one to NEVER support nor speak in favour of Putin! It is a blatant affront to all the dead souls and the Ukrainians who have died - it is an affront to their memory and Christianity itself! If you wish to support Putin and defend him or side with him, please stay AWAY from me for you are NO friend of mine!

I CAN forgive the errors of someone's ways (as we must all do as Christians) but if he persistently continues upon an ill path, I cannot side with him nor can I EVER support him for this is contrary to a Christian way of life and I shall not be made a 'participant' by supporting him for this would be nothing less than to sanction his ill ways and as a Christian I CANNOT do this! As for this, I have every right to state that I bring into question Putin's so-called 'spirituality' and I shall NOT retract these words! St John Klimakos may have well spoken but you dismally FAIL to respect this yourself in attacking me and using this to undermine me before all is all the more a despicable attempt at further attacking me and smells of arrogance on your part. Know that St John Klimakos is NOT God - he does not replace Him not his teachings and the teachings of Our Lord and the Apostles DO tell us it is our DUTY to point ills to help other Christians from falling into such pits - in essence it is part of our purpose to act as guides in showing such ill ways for what they are - and, let God alone judge their souls... - we have a DUTY to point out the errors of others if they do not march in the right path! We have a DUTY to bring into question the 'spirituality' of people who commit serious harms to humanity. I shall follow the Lords teachings well before anyone humanity has declared a Saint. As a 'believer' I do believe many Saints have heard the Word of God and pass on His Words on His behalf but I also exercise caution while humanity has also all too hastily churned out 'sainthood' quite readily in many cases in some religious traditions where I find some difficulty to follow some saints who's merit to 'Sainthood' is shall I say 'questionable' especially while others in their midst have been ignored and have lead a valiant, humble and glorious saintly path. However, I respect their 'status' and leave God to see to that... I personally do not choose to revere some. . .