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St Theophan the Recluse had an amazing devotion to the Most Holy Mother of God!

He said our veneration of her was not like that of other saints and angels.

What could be his most beautiful statement in this respect is when he said that "just as mothers nourish their children on the milk of their bodies, so too does the Mother of God nourish us, her children, through the Body and Blood of her Son and God in Holy Communion for our Lord took His Flesh and Blood from hers."

Alex

a very belated reply. No, the Glorious Mysteries I know end with the Coronation of Our Lady Queen of Heaven.

But aren't "mental images" called meditation? (discursive, albeit.) Without some meditation on the mystery, my mind goes to my to do list. I wouldn't mindlessly recite rote prayer, yet is impossible to be aware of every word when a prayer is said 10 times in a row.

That said, I have found de Montfort's method of adding a reference to the mystery between the 2 parts of the Hail Mary to be helpful when all else fails

A Catholic doctrine yet to be defined is that Mary is Mediatrix of all graces, that graces flow down from the Trinity trough Jesus and finally through Mary to us, if I am understanding this right. And prayers for receiving graces flow up by the same route. This can be a touchy subject, some might call this Mariolitry.

Not Mariolatry - but unnecessary. We already believe that according to the "lex credendi = lex orandi." The same is true of Our Lady's Compassion.

The only reason the Western Catholic Church defined the Immaculate Conception was because of its understanding of Original Sin - an understanding that does not obtain in the East.

Eastern objections to the IC have to do not with the All-Holiness of the Mother of God, but with its connection to that version of Original Sin.

Unless there was a movement against it, there was also no need to define the Assumption of our Lady. This appears, to the East, simply as a case of "flexing infallible papal muscle."

Alex

Mental images are not called mental images in the Christian East.They are considered dangerous, in fact.

Montfort's method of adding words to each Hail Mary is not at all about mental images.

Also, Montfort had 15 gonfalons with pictures of the 15 mysteries of the Rosary and he often had someone stand with one of them as the people prayed the Rosary. Icons are a different matter and there is no problem with them . . .

Alex

Interesting. But I don't understand. We need to define terms. What is a "mental image" in the Christian East, and why considered dangerous?

When I speak of "discursive meditation," do you consider that to be the "mental images?"

When I recite the Rosary I try turn over aspects of the mystery in my mind. Montfort's method is really only necessary for me if I am in danger of falling asleep and any meditation attempt would immediately become a dream. I usually pray the Rosary in front of a copy of the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

I understand the Eastern use of icons to be, roughly, a way to "make contact" with the subject of the icon? Similar to Western use of relics in a way? The icon "belongs" to the person or Persons depicted?

I know I am saying it wrong.

Anyway, sometimes I will use printed matter, Biblical or devotional, as an aid to meditation while saying the Rosary. It is the general Roman teaching, I believe, that it is more important to meditate on the mystery than to consciously say so many Aves. The lips can be occupied with Aves while the mind contemplates the Mystery, as well as possible given one's degree of mental fatique or alertness.

Isn't this similar to meditation using the Jesus prayer, with proper breath control?

Perhaps I should ask, what is the meaning of the word "meditation" in the East?

Dear Alex,

This is probably not the thread to get into this too much, but Orthodox Christians don't accept Original Sin? Why Baptism, why the concept of fallen human nature? What about Adam and Eve and the serpent and all that?

Eastern expression of the Dormition came before liturgical Roman veneration of the Assumption of Mary by centuries. Seems that East and West always agreed on the freedom from all sin given to the Theotokos. Anything less would be unworthy of the Mother of God.

I thought the nature of the Theotokos was settled at the Council of Ephesus, or another of the (first) seven councils when the nature(s) of Christ were defined, in refutation of the Arian and Nestorian heresies.

The Mother of God must be preserved from all stain, including original sin, or the whole system falls apart, and I thought this was implicitly always a part of Eastern and Western doctrine before the separation.

True, Bl. Pius IX probably did have political and/or dramatic considerations in mind as part of his decision to invoke the papal infallibility recently defined at Vatican I, insisting he was Prisoner of the Vatican as he did.

They took his real estate, but he might have felt he needed to assert his authority nevertheless, and a definition of the IC had been asked for by the faithful for centuries. Portugal had already obtained permission to name churches for the IC years before. The time was right. It was expected that the Mediatrix of All Graces doctrine would be defined at Vatican II, but of course, that council was only pastoral and refused to define anything, only to insinuate.

Charlie

That sounds like a good method. that way a "mental image" is not necessar.. I use aids like that, sometimes read about the Mystery.

BTW, I suspect that I just don't understand the different "takes" on original sin. Certainly, it must be part of Orthodox faith, but explaining it to a dense rationalism infected Roman is not easy, I venture.

The business of defining doctrine in the Latin Church probably had a lot to do with the Counter Reformation defense against Protestantism, which the East did not have to deal with. There are very few papal encyclicals and definitions that date before the 16th Century.

I think the Eastern spiritual objections to mental images is not so clear cut. In the high stages of hesychastic prayer, yes, imagined images are to be steadfastly avoided. Praying the Jesus prayer, for instance, we are told to maintain a constant awareness of the One whose Name we invoke, though we do not form a picture of him.

But I think it's stretch to say that there's no room for mental imagery in Eastern spirituality. For one thing, it's impossible to read scripture without forming pictures in the mind. Likewise, the Eastern hymnography and prayers are full of beautiful images.

The primary concern of the drive toward imageless prayer is to avoid delusions and idol-making. Christ, the angels, the saints, are not imaginary, so it's important for us not to lean on imagination in approaching them but make sure that our minds are prepared to bear the imprint of their reality and not our own concepts of what they're like.

Byzantine Seminary Press made a short booklet called The Rosary Book with side by side in two languages. The book is rather interesting in that you can only tell what mystery it is by the number given and the Jesus Clause.

Right now this booklet is the one I carry with me.

It is not on their website so you would have to call them to get it.

Dear Charlie,

Sorry to be getting back to this so late. I've had some health issues affecting my eyes but am slowing beginning to "see the light" again.

Actually, I don't know who suggested that Orthodoxy didn't accept Original Sin . . . The East does indeed accept Original Sin, but it has a different understanding of it than the later Western concept (which was doubtless influenced by St Augustine).

Original Sin in the East is not a "sin" in the actual sense but the penalty for the personal sin of Adam which was death and the weakening of our wills, concupiscence etc.

And while we are conceived and born in such Original Sin which impacts our nature, it does not completely overwhelm it.

Grace is what we all require to heal the impact of Original Sin in us and we require as much of Grace (which is the Holy Spirit Himself) as possible via the Sacraments, prayer etc.

In the case of the Mother of God, she was conceived in holiness (as was St John the Baptist whose conception we also celebrate liturgically).

This is why the idea of an "Immaculate Conception" is so very foreign to the Christian East. When the West encountered this opposition to the IC dogma, it automatically concluded that this must mean that the Christian East believes a) in the same notion of Original Sin as it does and that, b) the East does not accept the total holiness of the Mother of God as it believes she was conceived with Original Sin on her soul."

It is very hard for Roman Catholics to think outside the "Latin box" so to speak. The Christian East adheres to its theological weltanschauung as well.

The fact is that the East does not believe in defining things that are already accepted via the "lex orandi" liturgical tradition and which no one has ever opposed. The East does not accept the Western Assumption dogma because it has always honoured the Dormition, bodily Assumption and heaenly Coronation of the Most Holy Mother of God. The Most Holy Virgin Mary did not suffer the pangs of childbirth at the Nativity of our Lord beause of her being conceived in holiness/the Holy Spirit.

The East also has a dynamic view of Theosis/Divinization and that the Mother of God is forever growing in the great holiness that is hers by virtue of her role in salvation history. The same is true of all the saints and of us - although on different planes, of course.

Alex

Certainly, images are not divorced from Eastern spirituality. That is what icons are for.

And we are naturally drawn to mental images and cannot divest ourselves of them without great spiritual struggle and Grace.

The Byzantine East has rather a few more icons on its walls than many Western Churches, you know . . .

I love praying before them and also just contemplating them as they, rather than the imperfect images formed by my limited imagination that is inclined to sinfulness, lead me to the truth about God and His Saints, as well as correct theology.

Alex

a Deacon in training, still, Alex? I hope all is well in that endeavor.

I really enjoyed reading the above points.

Dearest Lester!

I'm open to whatever God would like from me/for me!

(Had my father sent me for voice training lessons, rather than piano lessons, I probably would have fulfilled his long-range plan for me re: becoming a Metropolitan . . .)

As it stands, I'm married to someone with similar power and influence over me . . .

Alex