www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Wording on Jesus Prayer Question?

Hello, I am relatively new to this forum and an outsider to Eastern Christianity.

My question/concern is the following.

The Jesus Prayer I found and at times prayed was "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, have mercy on me, a sinner". Now what occurred to me was I could not find this on any Eastern Catholic or Orthodox websites. Only places where I have found it was on a Anglican Bishop's webpage and a Roman Catholic Website.

So is this form of the Jesus Prayer theological correct?

If so was is meant by "Living God" ?

Thank you

There are no theological differences between the two forms. Both forms are correct. Those using "living" are quoting the Gospel. Those who do not are using the typical, shorter form. The term "living God" is found in numerous places in the Old and New Testaments.

I'd recommend doing an online Bible search for "living God" and reading the passages, and maybe reading your favorite commentary on each of the passages.

The term "Living God" refers to the Lord as the Source and Foundation of life. It was also used in ancient times to distingush between the true, Living God versus the dead gods of the pagans who "have no breath" in themselves, have eyes but do not see etc.

In the Greek tradition of Mt Athos, "Living God" is used in the extended form of the Jesus Prayer:

"O Lord Jesus Christ, Son and Word of the Living God, by the prayers of Your Most Pure Mother and all the Saints, have mercy and save me a sinner."

The shorter form of the Jesus Prayer in the Greek tradition is simply: "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me." (This is the form used in the translations of the Way of the Pilgrim. In fact, other Slavic texts of this book adds "Son of God" with "A sinner" added at the end for special penitential prayer).

The Slavic tradition doesn't really know or emphasize "Son of the Living God" and keeps the form at "Son of God" period.

The great Eastern Fathers and Teachers of the Jesus Prayer allowed for some variation of the Prayer, but most warned against using too many.

The Eastern Churches are agreed that the official and approved form today is: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

I too have seen Anglican and Lutheran authors recommend the Jesus Prayer - but they tend not to like "a sinner" at the end.

From the Eastern POV, to refer to ourselves constantly as "sinners" is NOT the same as repenting of a particular sin we have committed.

Rather, it refers to our sinful nature and inclinations, together with our darkened mind and weakened will as the direct result of Original Sin.

Thus, we pray "have mercy on me a sinner" until our last breath in this life.

Alex

I would like to start off by saying thank you. The responses on this forum are so helpful and charitable. It truly presents Eastern Christianity in a positive light to outsiders.


My concern was due to first liberals and spiritualists promoting this way of prayer and wording. Furthermore, I personally in the past had some negative experiences during periods practicing this prayer.

Both of you gave so much valued information. Administrator for pointing out how biblical and personal the idea of "living God" is. Also, Orthodox Catholic given a few examples of the prayer and by explaining "sinner" in the eastern sense to me. Which has been a stumbling block to me. Would it be possible to ask a few more questions? Moderator if this is a problem you can either chose not to post this or make this a new thread.

What are prostrations used during this prayer?

What are Signs of the cross used during this prayer?

What are approved Prayer rules?

What is an appropriate numbers of Jesus Prayers for the following types of laity? Understand this is a personal case by case situation, but what would be the norm.

Teenager/convert-

Mid twenties/ college education in some field-

Mid twenties/ college education in organized religion-

Mid thirties/ Life experience(Travel, relationships, failures)-

Mid fifties/ Been around the Merry-Go-Round more than once-

Mid Seventies/ Wisdom/ Calming of Passions-



Thank you and please pray for me.

Searching Pilgrim,

Your questions are better directed to a spiritual father. My responses are for general information only.

>>What are prostrations used during this prayer?<<

None are necessary. You can if you want to.

>>What are Signs of the cross used during this prayer?<<

None are necessary. You can if you want to.

>>What are approved Prayer rules? <<

The Jesus Prayer is a private devotion. There are no rules (remember that a 'rule' is a standard, not an absolute or a minimum to receive 'credit'). Having said that, most typically pray it as part of their private devotions while standing before an icon of the Savior, or maybe even sitting in their favorite chair, or even while lying in bed at night. Or you can kneel before the icon, too.

>>What is an appropriate numbers of Jesus Prayers for the following types of laity? Understand this is a personal case by case situation, but what would be the norm.<<

I won't address each of the specific groups you listed since the number is different for each person.

A person looking to pray the Jesus Prayer should just pray it. He might start with 10 or 33 repetitions once a day (and, if possible, at about the same time and in the same location for consistency). If time permits he can increase the repetitions to 150. My expectation is that a good spiritual father would limit a person to 150 per day for at least a few years before allowing him to increase the number. Then, for a layman, allowing him to repeat that 150 repetitions morning and night (for a total of 300). The point of the limitation is to allow one to learn to be able to be consistent in prayer. Too many people try to raise the number to a level they cannot possibly maintain over time. For most, 150 repetitions once a day is a very reasonable rule of prayer they can maintain over the years. More is not necessarily better.

Prior to starting the Jesus Prayer I'd recommend first getting down the praying of the Lord's Prayer ("Our Father, Who art in heaven....") three times a day, as directed by the Apostles in the Didache.

John

The Administrator's advice regarding having a spiritual Father in whom one may confide in about the Podvig or effort of praying the Jesus Prayer is, and always will be, excellent and also quite necessary.

I've given talks about the Jesus Prayer many times and EACH time I begin by giving this necessary advice.

It is true that there are new age groups that teach the saying of the Jesus Prayer as one would say a "mantra" or a "self-activating" vocal device.

That is NOT what the Jesus Prayer is about. One cannot divorce the Jesus Prayer from the total experience of liturgical life in the Church. The Prayer is there to deepen that experience, that life in Christ via His Body (which is also why we should have a spiritual Father to help us along our journey).

There are, of course, formal rules involving the Jesus Prayer that have been set down under Church approbation. How we are to use them and how much depends on our abilities but mostly in accordance with the advice that our spiritual Father will give us concerning this.

Certainly, our daily responsibilities impact on our prayer rule.

The form of the rule of the Jesus Prayer has ever modeled itself on that of the Byzantine Psalter. That Psalter is divided into twenty sections (Kathismas) and each Kathisma is further subdivided into three units, each ending with the Doxology: Glory be to the Father . . . Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Glory to You O God (repeated three times), then Lord have mercy (three times) followed again by Glory be to the Father . . .

So one hundred Jesus Prayers are ended with this doxology. 300 Prayers would make one Kathisma of the Psalter. 3000 Prayers would make half the Psalter and 6000 prayers would be an entire Psalter. This is why the Staretz in "A Way of the Pilgrim" prescribes 3000 Prayers to the Pilgrim, to be recited with the voice, and then 6000 and finally . . . 12000 or two Psalters . . .

According to Monastic Rules, monks and nuns would gather in the evening in the Church with their prayer ropes. The Abbot or Abbess would intone the Jesus Prayer three times out loud. Then everyone would make ten prostrations to the floor, crossing themselves using the Jesus Prayer first: placing our fingers to our forehead, we say "Lord" (as He is God from God) and then on our stomach we say "Jesus Christ" (recalling His Incarnation in the womb of His Most Pure Mother), and then to the right shoulder, saying "Son of God" (remembering that He sits at the Right Hand of God the Father) and then to the left shoulder saying "have mercy on me a sinner" (so that our Lord may deliver us from the evil one).

Then the monastics say the Jesus Prayer making the Sign of the Cross thirty more times, but with metanias/bows. And then everyone recites the Jesus Prayer the remaining seventy times in their hearts.

This is repeated ten times (with the tenth prayer rope using this invocation: My Sovereign Most Holy Mother of God, save me a sinner).

It follows that the Prayer is likewise modeled after the Daily Office: 1500 Prayers for Matins, 600 for Vespers and the Midnight Hour, 300 for each of the four daily Hours, 400 for Compline and 700 for Great Compline.

The minimum would be 300 Prayers for any Hour except Matins which could be replaced with 600 Prayers.

In place of a Prayer service to any Saint, one can say "Saint (name), pray unto God for me a sinner" six hundred times.

As the Administrator said (and he is a very good spiritual Counselor in his own Rite!), we need to be flexible and adaptable in how we integrate the Jesus Prayer in our lives. There is also the praying of the Name of Jesus Christ informally, while we are waiting for a meeting, while walking etc.

Fr. Lev Gillet, the "Monk of the Eastern Church," would recite the Jesus Prayer over others he saw on the public transit as a kind of "Epiclesis of the Name of Jesus."

One thing is certain - we will never tire of the invocation of the Name of our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ. We will only "get tired" after prolonged effort. We must guard against pride and know our limits.

And report to our spiritual Father every so often!

The Administrator's advice on the 150 Prayers represents the 150 Psalms and will lead you into further praying.

But his advice on praying three times a day is vital - praying less, but regularly, even seven times a day as Psalm 118/119 mentions, sanctifies the whole day and brings our souls up to heaven in a hurry. (The "Paternoster Psalter" developed from this in medieval times especially, as we know, where people would substitute the Hours with 7 Our Father's for the daily Hours and Compine, 14 for Vespers and 28 for Matins).

May our Lord continue to guide you in bringing you closer to Himself (which He is so very obviously doing and for which you should thank Him very much!).

Alex

Praise be Jesus, Mary, and Joseph on this Joyful Feast day. May that Glorious moment of Yes ring out throughout eternity.

Thank you for the reply.

I have been to a few different rites liturgies. It is a little easier now to comprehend Eastern Christianity.

First, I do deeply acknowledge my need for a Spiritual Father. This may inappropriate spot for this, but could you please pray that I find one who would be a good suit for me and that I may heed his spiritual counsel.

Second, in the East does "Mercy" take on a much more encompassing meaning? Does Mercy include grace, healing, and good favor in addition to forgiveness of sin?

Also, noticed in some liturgies the emphasis on "Peace" what does that mean in the East?

Thank you and GOD BLESS YOU ON THIS GLORIOUS DAY!

Yes, "mercy" is much more encompassing that just forgiveness of sins. in the Septuagint, "eleos" translates the Hebrew word "hesed"-steadfast love. This is where we should begin our understanding of "mercy".

I see peace is an interior disposition, where the passions are under control and properly ordered (hence, peace of the world is properly ordered relationships among groups).

In Christ,
Adam

Thank you akemner for your reply. I have found much insight on "eleos".

I found an excerpt by N.T. Wright in which he proposes two prayerful invocations. That are designed to follow the feeling/rhythm of the English Jesus prayer.


Epilogue The Prayer of the Trinity...ermission of the author.) by Tom Wright [ntwrightpage.com]

Granted it is not Orthodox nor Catholic and addressed to Anglicans. Personally found the reading so interesting that I had read it several times. Was wondering how others felt on the prayers addressed to God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

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Thank you for your time and apologies for spelling/grammar mistakes.

SP:

Christ is Risen!!

If you read explanations of the Jesus Prayer, you will find that it is already Trinitarian in its Orthodox form.

Bob

Absolutely.

The second part of the Jesus Prayer, "Son of God" refers to the Father.

The third part refers to the Unction or Oil of the Holy Spirit. Also, no one can say "Lord Jesus" except by the Holy Spirit.

Alex

THE WAY OF THE PILGRAM online. It has the four volumes of the Philokalia also.

The Way of the Pilgram [desertfathers.webs.com]

Dearest Pani Rose,

You are just so LOVEABLE!!

XXX

Thank you for this!!

Alex

Well thank you my dear Alex!

My personal thought on his question, is it didn't sound like the book was read, and if so studied.

I was totally surprised to find those online. Such a blessing by those who accomplished the task.