www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Anti-Orthodox ECs?

How do you cope with Eastern Catholics who make polemics-against-the-Orthodox into some kind of personal mission?

Ignore and shun.

Peter J:

Christ is in our midst!!

Some time ago I reponded to someone asking how to deal with a "Roman Bully." I think the same can be adapted to your situation.

Apparently whoever this is doesn't know anything about Vatican II or what the Catholic Communion of which he/she belongs has directed its members in the Eastern Catholic Churches to live in relation to Orthodox Christians.

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/127287/Re:%20Help%20with%20a%20Roman%20bully...#Post127287

Be assured of this. You are my brother in Christ. There is no other way of putting this. We are bound by the Apostolic Faith. We may have received it with a slightly different expression, but we have a common bond in the first millenium. Like relatives who have been estranged, we have to find a way to restore our relationship. It won't be easy; it won't happen overnight. But we can no longer beat each other up physically or verbally.

Bob

I have occasionally run into such people. You need to find out where they are at spiritually and educationally. If they are the type of person that is more Catholic than the pope you can try quoting official documents (like the following). Most often, however, they would not listen even if the pope visited them in person.
It's best to pray for them. Then be polite to them and joke about it: "Yes, we know you reject what the Catholic Church teaches about the Orthodox." Then change the subject.

I probably should -- especially when names like "rabid donatist" come into the conversation (b/c of the conservative Orthodox position on intercommunion with other Christians) -- but I have to admit I find it difficult to do so at times.

Peter J:

Christ is in our midst!!

The Catholic Church does not practice "intercommunion" either. The guidelines on who may receive in a Catholic Church specify that there are certain Churches that may have their members approach if they cannot readily receive the Mysteries from clergy of their own. But there are no open communion practices that would allow any Christians of the Reformation communities to do so.

And why not?

Because the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox Churches, believes that one must adhere to the same eucharistic theology as the community in which one communes. Unlike some Christian communities, we do not adhere to the idea that each person may bring his/her own theory or theology to the reception of the Eucharist. By approaching, one says by this action that one adheres to all the teachings of the community in which one is then communing and is in complete agreement with the priest who serves the Liturgy and with his superiors in the episcopate.

So there is much more to receiving the Mysteries than simply dropping by and approaching when it is communion time.

Bob

Amen.

I'll be following this thread. I, being Orthodox - now, try not to let my love grow cold. I still maintain relations with my fellow Latin/Byzantine Catholics; it's not rose-colored, but I'm thankful things can maintain warmth and well-groundedness.

Peter J:

Christ is in our midst!!

I conducted a funeral today in a Catholic church. At communion, the priest stopped everything and reminded the congregation of the Catholic Church's rules regarding the reception of communion--Catholics if they were properly prepared and non-Catholics who were invited to cross their arms to receive a blessing if they chose to come forward. He referred to the guidelines printed inside the pew book.

Well, unlike so many many other funerals I've conducted where everyone approached, there were very few who approached--though there were many people who looked at each other as if to wonder what this was all about. There are many who approach the Mysteries because they are used to the standard Protestant invitation to anyone who is a baptized Christian to feel welcome to receive.

So, despite any confusion, the Catholic Church does not practice open communion.

Bob

I have seen this amongst Roman Catholics as well, particularly among the more traditional crowd, who I would definitely count myself in. And, being Roman Catholic myself, I have experienced this in the opposite direction from Orthodox Christians.

My own personal take on this is that while there are definitive doctrinal questions which currently keep us apart, that our most legitimate ecumenical efforts are geared towards each other, and we should increase this work as much as we are able. The Catholic Church, particularly on the Roman side of the house, has much to get in order for that to happen.

I pray that God makes it so.

Peter J:

Christ is in our midst!!

I have experienced this phenomenon in the West, too. For some people the only way they can define their Christian commitment is to be AGAINST someone else. To me, that shows a dangerous spiritual immaturity. It is true that there are serious theological differences among the various Apostolic Churches and between and among the various communities of the Reformation.

However, I truly think we need to understand that we need to work together for our common good, even when we cannot share at the Lord's Table. We have a common problem with our brethren being slaughtered around the world because they have made the same commitment we have. For starters, we need--IMHO--to advocate for them with a common voice. If we cannot do that, we fail to be who we say we are.

We also have much to do to eradicate poverty in so many corners of the world and we need not compete with each other to get that done.

When the Lord comes, He will be asking what we did for the least of His brethren, not how often did we beat another down because he/she did not worship with us. We are all called to love unconditionally, even those who hate and maltreat us. We are called to take up our cross when they "insult you and say all manner of evil against you for My sake."

Bob

Thank you, Bob. Perhaps it's a good time to ponder those words of Papa Francesco to our Ecumenical Patriarch on today's blessed feast. Feast of St. Andrew [zenit.org]

What are some of the objectionable behaviors of these Catholics?

I should say also that I have seen the reverse as well. I have personally tried to have good conversations on Orthodox forums, and have experienced polemics more than once. Unfortunately, this seems to go both ways.

I experience that in Roman Catholic circles. It's even directed against Eastern Catholics which they see as not really in communion with Rome

I try to educate them, but the hardcore 'bullies' are unwavering

Those bullies also hold many Novus Ordo Catholics in the same esteem.

But it is true that, more and more, I see our UGCC people as Orthodox in every which way with only a "grudging" acknowledgement of a certain administrative role for the pope.

But if Rome wants to excommunicate us and throw us out so that we would go and unite with our Orthodox brothers and sisters . . .

Who are we to argue with the See of St Peter?

Alex

You've got to be kidding aboutEastern Catholic/Orthodox rivalry.
Here in Northeastern Pennsylvania we treat each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Don't you just love ignorance? Reminds me of my move to the town I live in and a conversation with a teacher, then just retired, about the grammar situation in the local newspaper. When I suggested that she might get a job there correcting grammar and syntax, she told me "I don't have enough years left in my life to get that done."

I fear that neither do we have enough time to get the kind of ignorance displayed by some overcome. But we keep on trying with a smile.

Bob

Not kidding, but I should stress that I was mostly referring to experiences I've had electronically. Eastern Catholics with flesh and blood, that I've seen, have been quite fair-minded toward our Orthodox brethren.

There is one thing that is missing here and that is that EC's and Orthodox are also delineated by their own national Particular Churches.

Ukrainian EC's and Orthodox (EP, KP and Autocephalous - including not a few of those who are MP) have never been on better terms - this is what Pavloosh means.

When it comes to the MP, that is a different story and has NOTHING to do with religious differences.

As we have seen the UOC-MP Primate has given broad permission for his priests and bishops to stop commemorating the Moscow Patriarch to avoid what he himself referred to as "the outrage of the faithful."

One of the difficulties North American EC's and Orthodox have with this is that we just don't understand those issues and how deeply runs that national divide.

Alex

That not usual fr in most of our conservative Confessional lutheran churches
We practice closed communion and ask if you are not a member to speak to the pastor before hand frankly I agree with that and we practice not praying with people outside of our synods because we feel pray is a form of worship
And don’t you agree if a couple come to you to get married one of them must be a member of the church in good standing before you marry them

If the Eastern Catholic is one of the 14 Byzantine rite Churches than to be anti Orthodox is self refuting. Any refutation of Holy Orthodoxy is a refutation of Byzantine Catholicism. Orthodoxy is our Mother Church and where we belong and where God calls us to be. I will never understand how so many in our churches are ok with all the latinization in our liturgy, theology, ecclesiology, etc. We need bold Bishops who are willing to assert our own church's authority and kick Rome out of our affairs entirely. Our synods will appoint our own Bishops with no permission or approval being sought from Rome. That's not needed. Rome is not above the Byzantine Catholic Churches. We are in communion with Rome and Rome is in communion with us. Our Churches are equal. We must stop affirming, even if it's just on paper, the heresy of papal supremacy (something which Rome herself no longer believes in given the Ravenna, Chieti and Alexandria documents and the general direction of Pope Francis' pontificate).