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Mar 25th, 2025
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Dear Alice and all you other brothers and sisters in Christ, Just yesterday checked out the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America website www.goarch.org [ goarch.org] and viewed their video catechism for the Mystery of Crowning. It was filmed in St. Sophia Cathedral in downtown LA. Truly beautiful wedding according to the Orthodox tradition. One day, we'd like for my wife and me to have our wedding vows renewed with a Crowning in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Let's see, first we were married in the Episcopal Church, then the Roman Catholic Catholic...next the Holy Mystery of Crowning! BTW Alice, just wanted to thank you for your wonderful words of kindness and Christian charity to all of us here at the ByzCath Forum. You're truly one of God's treasures! Sam
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The ceremony certainly is pretty spiffy, isn't it? I wish that the Latin marriage rite had this beauty. As a Latin organist, I have played "The Prayer" and "Wind Beneath My Wings" at so many weddings that I've lost count. That's not a reflection on the Church or anything, but such abuses aren't possible according to the Eastern Rite of Holy Matrimony. Latin weddings (well, Novus Ordo weddings, I sorta like the Tridentine wedding rite) are just...lame compared to this.
Rites aside, I feel that the Eastern churches place the proper emphasis on the relationship between husband and wife and the importance and sanctity of marriage in general. In the West, people are seen as "Falling into the 'trap' of marriage." Married men cannot be ordained to the ministerial priesthood, and there are severe restrictions placed on married men who wish to be ordained to the deaconate. Things seem to be slightly out of balance, in my opinion... (gosh, I feel slightly seditious getting that out in the open).
I'm reminded of Jean-Baptiste Lacordaire's comment: "Come, come, Father! I have always heard that Jesus established seven sacraments. Now you come along and change everything. You tell me that he established six sacraments, and a trap! No, Father, marriage is not a trap, it is a great sacrament."
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Incidentally, the GOA website is truly impressive. If only Catholics could come up with something like that... the Vatican website is great and all but it's not necessarily for someone who is not familiar with the Church at all. If only I had few servers and a fat internet pipe at my fingertips...
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Thanks for the compliments to the GOA website.
I believe it won a website award last year.
The OCA website is not too bad either, though not as comprehensive.
The AOCA website is new, and pretty good as well.
In Christ,
Alice
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...I feel that the Eastern churches place the proper emphasis on the relationship between husband and wife and the importance and sanctity of marriage in general. In the West, people are seen as "Falling into the 'trap' of marriage." If people in the West feel that marriage is a trap, I don't think it's the fault of the Western Church but of contemporary society which is become utilitarian and materialistic. I agree the GOA website is wonderful and it has so many resources. I like to visit it and learn. I like to watch the live broadcasts of Divine Liturgy on Sunday mornings whenever I can.
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CatholicNerd,
Nothing to prevent an adaptation of the Mystery of Crowning to take place in the Latin Church.
I was prepared to do it at a 40th aniversary, but the groom is still a little shy after all these years.Oh well.
Stephanos I
There are many cultural adaptations that happen in our parish. To name some, 1. The binding together of the bride and groom by a lasso, the covering of the bride and groom with a white veil symbolizing their baptism into Christ, and the Arreha or 13 silver coins committing the groom to provide for his spouse and family.
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Originally posted by alice:
Thanks for the compliments to the GOA website. I believe it won a website award last year. Alice, Yes it did. The International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences awards the Webby, the web-world's equivalent to Oscar. The GOA's website won the People's Voice Webby for Spirituality sites at the 7th Annual Webby Awards in 2003. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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The mystery of Crowning in the Eastern Church is impressive and spiritually deep indeed. But one should not idealize the way in which it is performed today. There is a great lacuna in this mystery, that is its disconnection with the Eucharist. Originally the Crowning was the solemn announcement made by a wedding couple to the congregation that the couple starts its family life. The congregation that represented the entire Church blessed the newly-weds who sealed their unity through partaking of the Sacrament and also via drinking from the glass Common Cup that was immediately broken up, which symbolized that their alliance is eternal and cannot be discontinued and conclude again with somebody else. (At least theoretically).
Today these crucial elements are out of the Eastern wedding ceremony. In their stead certain western elements have sneaked into the traditional Byzantine ordo of Crowning, corrupting its original ideas. First of all the priest asks the bridegroom and bride whether they are willingly going to conclude the marriage or not. Then the couple before the priest makes promise to be true, and some parishes even practise symbolical binding of the newly-weds� hands. Actually all these things are too western and too juridical, so to speak. It makes the priest be the only and eventual performer of the mystery while in fact it is the bridegroom and bride together with their families (let alone God) who were originally regarded as the genuine performers of wedding. Later, concerning the marriage, the stress has been wrongly remade on the spiritual authorities approve instead of the free decision of people. Alas!
Valerius
Valerius
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Originally posted by Valerius:
It makes the priest be the only and eventual performer of the mystery while in fact it is the bridegroom and bride together with their families (let alone God) who were originally regarded as the genuine performers of wedding. Valerius, In Western tradition, it is the bride and groom who are the ministers of the sacrament. In the tradition of the East, it is the priest who does so. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
[QUOTE]Valerius,
In Western tradition, it is the bride and groom who are the ministers of the sacrament. In the tradition of the East, it is the priest who does so.
Many years,
Neil I would say the other way around. It is the priest who on his behalf and by the power allegedly given to him proclaims the couple man and wife at a western wedding. On the contrary, the Byzantine Trebnik demands the head of a family to put wedding rings on the fingers of the bride and groom. As far as an Orthodox priest is concerned, he just prays God to crown the couple but never says anything like, �I proclaim you man and wife�. That�s why I state that according to the genuine Eastern tradition a priest is not, or at least used not to be the minister of the sacrament of Crowning. In the East of today the priest plays a much more important role at a wedding, which looks like the giving of the official Church approval without which the marriage concluded by the free will of Christian newly-weds would de allegedly invalid. It is nothing but western influence. Valerius
Valerius
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Sorry to argue this Valerius - but in the RC Church the Bride and Groom ARE the Ministers of the Sacrament
Neil is absolutely correct
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Neil is correct on this one. In the West, the man and woman are ministers of the sacrament (hence, deacons can officiate). http://www.rcab.org/marriage3.html It is crucial to keep in mind that the bride and the groom are the ministers of the sacrament of marriage. The man gives the sacrament to the woman, the woman gives the sacrament to the man. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "In the Latin Church, it is ordinarily understood that the spouses, as ministers of God's grace, mutually confer upon each other the Sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church (CCC, 1623)." In spite of this theological tenet, more often than not, the priest or deacon at a wedding is considered by many to be the minister of the sacrament. Many call him the minister. Even his liturgical gesture of extending his arm in blessing over the couple can look as if he is conferring the sacrament. However, he is not. The priest or deacon is an "official" witness of the faith community. Along with the best man and maid of honor, he is one of the three individuals who witness what the two ministers are doing. Our theology teaches that it is the consent of the two ministers which brings about the sacrament of marriage. In the East, it is absolutely certain that the priest in the "minister of the sacrament," (if we can use such language when speaking of Orthodox theology - certainly not the best terminology). The priest "calls down" the Holy Spirit, much like an epiclesis: "O Lord our God, crown them with glory and honor!" He gives them the rings (and they exchange them), he crowns them, he gives them the cup, and he leads them around the table. That is, he is the "minister of the sacrament," in the same way he is at the eucharist. However, again, this language does not fit well in Orthodox theology. It is certainly not "priest centered." The eucharist is an offering of the entire church, the entire gathering. But we must also state that a priest/bishop is an essential element in that gathering for there to be a eucharist, or a baptism, or a marriage. That would be my only point here. That marriage is somewhat "disconnected" from the Eucharist is nothing new, however sad. So is baptism, in modern practice. This does not diminish the role of the priest, however. Priest Thomas Soroka
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In terms of beauty, Catholic Nerd, the Latin marriage rite is positively magnificent-- in its traditional form. I encourage you to check out a Tridentine wedding mass if you ever get the chance--especially if it is a High Mass like mine was!  In Christ, LatinTrad
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LT, Welcome back. Settling in alright? Find the indult Tridentine Mass yet ? Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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