www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology On Erroneous Remarks Made By "Catholic" Newsletter On Eastern Married Clergy

Hello All!

I would really appreciate your input on a recent newsletter that was put out by "Catholics in Faithful Voice" (Vol. XV, Issue One). In it, there was an article which addressed celibacy in the priesthood.

While attempting to address the Roman aspect of this practice, which for them is a controversial and sometimes volatile issue, a few observations were made as it concerns the Eastern Christian Tradition of Married Clergy.

The author of that article is a named Phil Kiernan, someone who I know to be quite knowledgeable when discussing matters on the Catholic Faith. Unfortunately though, he is also someone whose has had his opinions somewhat skewed by the Traditionalist's teachings and mentality (Roman Catholic Traditionalists frown on most anything post-Vatican II).

In his article, which was rebuking certain Roman Catholic priests for their having signed a petition in support of a married clergy, Mr. Kiernan goes on to state:

"The Byzantine or Greek practice of ordaining married men who continued to have relations with their wives originated about the time of the "Quinisext" Synod in the sixth century. See Byzantine scholar, Roman Cholij's book "Clerical Celibacy, East and West" for an account of how documents and histories were tampered with and manipulated to bring this about."

"In light of the above, how do the signers of this letter (those Roman priests) explain that 'marriage and it's many blessings' are compatible with the priesthood and, in fact, enhance priestly ministry? Our Lord, His Apostles, and His Church are all witnesses against this assertion. Moreover, the lives of married clergy, whether Byzantine Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, or Jewish, do not bear this out. None of these religious groups are awash in vocations because their clergy are permitted sexual relations. The Eastern Catholic Churches of Europe and America are still heavily dependent on Latin Catholic priests to minister to their people. Eastern Orthodox congregations in the U.S. are often forced to go to Europe or the Middle East to find priests for their parishes. Many Protestant denominations are gasping for ministers." (from page 11 of the newsletter's article "Arrows of Lascivious")

Hmmm. Well people, what do you think?

Sounds like Mr. Kiernan has gotten some of his facts mixed up, or he has been researching from some seriously corrupted and/or biased sources.

I know from having read a lot of the discussions here on this forum, that there is a vast array of very intelligent and studied people who peruse these parts.

If you would, please supply us with some of your thoughts or references that will correct some of what Mr. Kiernan has attempted to address.

And finally, this newsletter does not have a website, but THEY DO have an e-mail address listed for those who might want to comment on any of their articles. I would submit that we should use this avenue to address any of the concerns that we might as it relates to some of Mr. Kiernan more grievous errors and misconceptions.

Their e-mail address is:
cccad@capital.net

Or, you may want to write them at:
Catholics in Faithful Voice
P.O. Box 13-532
Albany, N.Y. 12212

Thanking you one and all for your generous insights!

Frank

Dear Frank,

That quote reflects a number of traditionalist Latin presuppositions about the historic married priesthood that are unsubstantiated.

One is that while there were married priests in East and West, the priests never had sexual relations with their wives, but lived with them as brother and sister.

The point is that children were produced by married priests and we shall assume they came from their parents and not from storks.

And I've nothing against storks, their ability to fly certainly makes the timely delivery of babies a much more efficient enterprise!

But without really studying the matter or researching it, I think we can assume that the children of married priests came into the world the usual way.

And those children often became priests themselves with all the implications of a priestly "caste" system - against which mandatory celibacy was said to have reacted against.

The fact that there are priestly shortages in our churches, despite the fact that they allow for married priests, has more to do with economics than with any enthusiasm engendered by the thrill of being able to have sexual relations with Presbyteras.

The situation in the Latin Church has to be understood on its own merits and not by false comparisons with the EC, Orthodox and Protestant situations.

Apart from that, it is no use debating the matter with him or people of that ilk.

They will resist to their final breath any horrific notions of holy celibate priests even contemplating sexual relations.

They will probably resist any notions of themselves going out on a date as well . . .

As someone who was formerly a convinced life-long celibate, destined for the strictest monastic enclosures of the eremitically destitute, I can attest that, once you get the hang of them, women are great!

Alex

That Roman Cholij book is a disaster. It is a completely tendentious tract that twists and turns everything to fit its thesis about the superiority of the celibate tradition (and this from a supposed Ukrainian Catholic!). I have seen nothing but utterly scathing reviews by reputable scholars in reputable journals, all denouncing the book as a grotesque misrepresentation of the truth. It is not to be relied upon.

Dear Adam,

So you agree that women are great too!

That's terrific!

Alex

Alex,

Christ is Risen!

You get the hang of women? You must write a book on that. You'll be on every talk show from Oprah Winfrey to Rush Limbaugh.

I don't get the hang of women, but I do love them. I grew up with three sisters, I'm married to my lover ( I hope that came out right), I have four daughters, three female cats a one female dog, and my boss is a woman. Of course I don't love them all of the equally.

The Spanish saying goes, "bendito tu eres entre todo las mujeres!" Translation: Blessed are you among women !

I am.

Sincerely yours in our risen Lord,

Paul

Dear Paul,

Blessed indeed . . .

Perhaps this is why you never like to "skirt" around issues . . .

Alex

Christ is Risen!
Indeed, He is Risen!

I would posit the notion the notion that Rome is in need of renewal in regard to this topic. Married Priest should be phased in, beginning with a reinvigorated diaconate. Then a redefinition of clerical celibacy to the episcopacy and monastic orders hand in hand with married Priests who are allowed to marry only before ordination, and only once.
E D

St. Hilary's daughter is honored as a saint.

The forum's own Anthony Dragani has written an article for Eastern Churches Journal that effectively debunks this stuff. Hopefully, he can post either the reference to the article or he can provide us with a summary of his arguments.

First off,

Let me thank you one and all for your generous posts (even though we got a little off track on the subject of how great women are ... LOL).

Now, on to your comments.

Alex - Thank you for reminding us that in the course of human history. there was only one recorded incident of a virgin birth - that of our Lord Jesus Christ. That fact that the priests of the early Church were having marital relations with their wives then becomes a very self-evident fact.

Adam & jbosl - Thanks for providing us with some insights into other sources that de-bunk (or at least put into serious question) Roman Cholij's book on priestly celibacy. I wonder if Phil Kiernan (the writer of the article from "Catholics in Faithful Voice") had ever taken the time to research those who had seriously questioned the legitimacy of Mr. Cholij's writings. Probably not. Most likely, he just needed to quote from a source that refuted the dissident Roman Catholic clergy of Albany, N.Y. - and had apparently found what he had needed in the writings of Mr. Cholij.

Also, you have stated that Mr. Anthony Dragani has previously provided information on this topic. I'd love to see that info if someone could kindly point me in the right direction! Mr. Dragani, are you listening? (Please!)

Paromer - I have 3 cats also! I believe that pets are one of God's special gifts to us in that they remind us to laugh once in a while (their antics never fail to amaze me!), to keep our hearts soft (as they need our loving care), and that they are also a way to remind us of the wonders of His creation (God made those cute little critters!).

balaban - While I duly respect your opinions, I am a firm believer in following the advice of the Holy Father over that of my own desires or anyone else's. The Petrine Office is a very special one indeed, and it will remain so until the very end of the world. That it should be this way was the specific desires of our Lord Jesus Christ. To that, there can be no change.

I say this so that we�re reminded of this Pope's (as well as many others) statements regarding that of the celibate priesthood. That for the Roman Catholics, this has become for them part of their ongoing tradition. To that, there is no doubt.

Conversely, no Pope that I know of has ever refuted the Eastern Christian Church's tradition of the married priesthood. To me, that says a lot.

Believing as our Holy Catholic Church teaches - that on matters of Faith and Morals the Holy Pontiff is being firmly and tenuously guided by the Holy Spirit like no other man on this planet - there seems to me to be no question then that God must truly desire/want/permit the Eastern Christian Churches to maintain in a tradition that is specific to them, and to them alone.

And because of the God ordained uniqueness of the Petrine Office, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the Eastern and Latin Catholic Churches are maintaining a separate tradition on this issue (and as it relates to other issues as well). I see these practices (the celibate priesthood and the married priesthood) as being special gifts/graces which God has distributed as He sees fit to the Churches that He desires should have them.

Nothing more - nothing less.

What bothers me greatly is when Catholics (Eastern or Roman) decides that they know better than the Holy Pontiff himself on how to guide the Church. This type of ill perceived mindset has lent itself to causing a near schism of the Roman Catholic Church in America as it relates to the Catholic Church worldwide (but I believe that in the end, God would never allow that to happen). And it is equally troubling when I find Eastern Catholics who also think that they have now themselves become the Petrine Office and know what is better/right/wrong for the Catholic Church worldwide.

And neither one of those beliefs is a truly Catholic one - or prudent. Both of those mindsets, if followed with too much self-importance (as has been the case in certain areas of the world) is very simply, and plainly - wrong. In the end, to this type of thought, no spiritual fruits can manifest. Because both actions are inherently opposed to the desires of how God has designed to personally set up His Church. To want to rule the Church ourselves is of a spirit that is anti-God, or (if you will) anti-Christ.

And to those infractions against the faith, I will have no part.


Thanking you all once again for having taken a genuine interest in this thread,

Frank

Hi,

Could anyone offer actual statistics to show that, within the same territories, Churches with married clergy are doing better in the quantity of vocations when compared to us, Roman Catholics?

My guess is that the difference is not statistically significant, as I do not think the requirement to give up sex is demanding enough to accout for the magnitude of the crisis.

Of course, the impact of marriage in the quality of a vocation is entirely another matter. It is quite logical to assume that the general profile of a married priest will be significantly different from that of a celibate priest.

Whether this diversity is desirable might be subject to debate, but I think it is plain silly to assume that it would not exist.

My own position is that all Sui Iuris Church need to be immediately "empowered" to implement her own traditions on this matter, regardless of geographical location, and only after that, each Sui Iuris would then be able to decide if she wants to revise such traditions.

Shalom,
Memo.

Justin,

Thanks for the plug! Unfortunately, I don't have the reference for the article handy at the moment. I'll dig it up and post it later.

Also, I'm going to contact Eastern Churches Journal, who published the article, and see if I can obtain permission to post it on-line at my website. I would like to be able to refer people to it more easily, so that when cases like this arise I can quickly counter the misinformation.

As for Cholij's book, the author himself has done a 180 degree shift. He now fully supports a married priesthood among Eastern Catholics, and has purposely distanced himself from his previous work.

Anthony

Christ Is Risen!


Dragani ...........

YOU'RE THE BEST !


God love ya brother, and thanks for your help!

Frank

Dear Memo,

I do remember way back when married Deacons were all the rage in the Latin Church, our local seminary was turning away applications to the diaconate.

There are also thousands of Latin priests who have left to get married and who are petitioning Rome to return to active ministry - and Rome turns them down regularly.

The point is that the marriage issue in the Latin Church IS an issue precisely because the Latin Church doesn't have married priests.

The fact is also that the abuse scandals have given popular (if unscientific) support to the "knee-jerk" reaction on the part of Catholic laity in particular who surmise, "The reason for this is because our priests aren't married."

What I'm saying is that to compare the Latin Church with the Eastern Churches to try and see what causality married priesthood has on numbers of vocations would be very difficult because of the influence of the Churches' uniquely different situations that affect this issue.

Alex

Alex,

Why can't everybody see the issues as plainly and clearly as you have just explained it!

Yes, you are very right. The Eastern and Latin Catholic Churches are one - and yet they are at the same time wonderfully different and unique.

People just don't seem to get that. I wish they did. Even though I now go to an Eastern Catholic Church, I shall always love them both.

Because each Church is truly a full and complete Catholic Church, and each Church has a certain way of expressing God's wonderful graces for their Church.

Amen!

Frank