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Joined: Nov 2001
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Christos Voskrese! A friend that posts here asked me to post the 5th Canon of the the 85 Canons (The Apostolic Canons): No Bishop, Presbyter, or Deacon shall put away his own wife under pretext of reverence. If however he put her away, let him be excommunicated; and if he persist in so doing, let him be deposed from office.I know that the Roman Catholics (regardless of rite) have rewritten Canon Law many times over the last 1,000 years and so do not have these canons anymore, but this may be of interest as to the Apostolic and Orthodox Canon Law. As an aside, later an exception (Canon 8 of the 15 Canons [from the Local Council of NeoCaesarea]) was made that if a priest's wife was publicly convicted of adultery, that a priest must divorce her. In Christ, -'Nikolai' http://EuphrosynosCafe.com
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Dear Nikolai, There is an unwritten Canon pertaining to personal behaviour that goes something like this: Don't call someone by a name they don't like being called. I am not a Roman Catholic and my rite has nothing to do with Roman Catholicism. I know you know that.  As for the Canon you quote on behalf of your friend, does your friend not know that there are instances when Orthodox priests seek agreement with their wives to enter into monasticism, even while their wives are yet alive? And no one has deposed them for so doing. And St Basil the Great also said, in his Ascetikon, that married priests may enter into the monastic state while their wives are yet alive, with their wives' approval. He then adds, "or else without their approval." As far as I know, no one has excommunicated St Basil the Great for saying this. Perhaps your Autonomous Church has?  And the reason why this canon isn't of particular interest to Roman Catholics of whatever rite (Roman, Milanese, Gallican, Mozarabic)is because most RC priests, if they decided to enter the monastic state, wouldn't have a wife to worry about putting away in the first place . . . Is your friend someone we know? I would choose my friends a bit more carefully, Big Guy. You wouldn't want his simplistic approach to rub off on you now, would you? God bless, Alex
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Hmmm....Nicolai... First of all, Christos Voskrese! Secondly, shooting canons is fun sport by some, I know, but I think that a few of them have been changed in Orthodoxy too...so let's not go telling the West how they have changed so much...(ofcourse, in some Orthodox circles that is considered equally fun sport, as is anathema hurling).... For one, let's say that Bishops were supposed to be tonsured monks, but that hasn't happened in the highest ranks of Orthodoxy for a while...but then again, if you are ROCOR, you will probably say that it is just those 'heretical' Greek and Antiochian Orthodox who do that! Also, there are many canons regarding penances that have been modified by the Orthodox. Ofcourse, changes in Orthodoxy are not equivalent to changes in the Latin church...changes in Orthodoxy are attributed to 'oikonomia' (dispensation), but in the West they are, but ofcourse...'heresy'! :p In Christ, Alice
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic: Dear Nikolai,
There is an unwritten Canon pertaining to personal behaviour that goes something like this:
Don't call someone by a name they don't like being called.
I am not a Roman Catholic and my rite has nothing to do with Roman Catholicism.
I know you know that. What do you call the Basilians then? ;-) :-P I just meant to use a general term and did not want to say Uniates as fearing to cause scandal. Neiother did I want to just say "Catholics" and offend me Orthodox Catholic brethren. Sorry! Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
As for the Canon you quote on behalf of your friend, does your friend not know that there are instances when Orthodox priests seek agreement with their wives to enter into monasticism, even while their wives are yet alive? And no one has deposed them for so doing. Yes SHE knows, but wanted me to post the canon none the less. Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Is this friend someone we know? I would choose my friends a bit more carefully, Big Guy. Yes, she posts here even! :-o In Christ, -'Nikolai' http://EuphrosynosCafe.com
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P.S. Dear Nicolai.... Actually, my post was in fun...I hope that you didn't take offense in it... I LOVE Russian spirituality, and my favorite Orthodox books are about Russian saints and people... It is just that sometimes some Orthodox can be very offensive in their intolerance/judgementalism/and polemicism towards other Orthodox, and especially towards our Western brethren who are with the Patriarch of Rome. I especially remember coming briefly in contact with 'Orthodoxy or Death'( on an Orthodox discussion forum) who I believe is a friend of yours over at the cafe...I was VERY scandalized by his outlook, to say the least. I don't think that our Omnipotent, all loving and all merciful God is as limited as we are by earthly and sinful ego,cultural/religious triumphalism, nationalism and prejudice!  In any case, I welcome you warmly in Christ our Lord.... Voistinu Voskrese! Alice, who may be considered by y'all at the cafe as one of those 'liberal' Orthodox...aka:Greek!
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Originally posted by alice:
Hmmm....Nicolai...
First of all, Christos Voskrese! Vo Istinu Voskrese! Originally posted by alice: For one, let's say that Bishops were supposed to be tonsured monks, but that hasn't happened in the highest ranks of Orthodoxy for a while...but then again, if you are ROCOR, you will probably say that it is just those 'heretical' Greek and Antiochian Orthodox who do that! Well I am not ROCOR, but yes, you are right. :-P My synod does not accept modernizations that go against the Traditions passed on from the councils. Later councils could amend canons, but we kept the canons and did not scrap the book and rewrite it like others have. (No judgment, just facts!) :-D I would think that Alex would like the Russian Orthodox (Autonomous) Church [ roac.ru] as they are the Catacomb Church that become a registered entity, even though they were administratively in communion for a while, which Alex would not like. If you are interested, you can hear about one of the great hieromartys of the Russian Orthodox Church (not the MP!) at http://www.RussianOrthodox-roac.com/SaintBasil.html In Christ, -'Nikolai' http://EuphrosynosCafe.com
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Since you are Greek, Christos Anesti! Originally posted by alice:
P.S. Dear Nicolai....
Actually, my post was in fun...I hope that you didn't take offense in it... None taken at all. I hope I neither offended nor scandalized you. I only meant to explain why the canon only applied to Orthodox and not those under the Pope of Rome's omophorion. (Is that better Alex?) :-D Originally posted by alice:
I LOVE Russian spirituality, and my favorite Orthodox books are about Russian saints and people... I hope you enjoy the link I posted above about a true martyr for the Faith, Saint Basil of Kineshma. God Bless! In Christ, -'Nikolai' http://www.EuphrosynosCafe.com
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Dear Nikolai, Yes, that's much better!! And of course I like the ROAC. I've nothing against any Orthodox jurisdiction. One day I'll compile a sociogram of Orthodox jurisdictions to make it easier for Western Christians to understand how they relate to one another. "She?" I hope it isn't one of those Presbyteras whose husbands went off and became monks, with or without their consent! That might explain why she's such a stickler for that particular canon . . . In any event, why don't you include the rest of the martyred Royal Family in your avatar? Are you sure you are a totally Orthodox Christian? (TOC)? And I thought you were ALL TOC! God bless, Alex
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
"She?"
I hope it isn't one of those Presbyteras whose husbands went off and became monks, with or without their consent!
That might explain why she's such a stickler for that particular canon . . . LOL! No, she is not an abandoned Panimat'ka. (look I can still use Ukrainian Alex!) LOL! Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
In any event, why don't you include the rest of the martyred Royal Family in your avatar? When my avatar was changed from the one I was using previously, ( http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/Images/avatars/Desktop_1.gif ) it was changed to Saint Nicholas of Myra in Lycia, so I quickly found an icon of the Sainted Tsar Martyr quickly to send to the administrator to put up on my profile's avatar instead. I assure you that I have a devotion to the entire Royal Martyrs, especially with my daughter being named after on of the Grand Duchesses! God Bless you too Alex! In Christ, -'Nikolai' http://EuphrosynosCafe.com
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic: One day I'll compile a sociogram of Orthodox jurisdictions to make it easier for Western Christians to understand how they relate to one another. Alex, There is a fascinating undertaking - the problem would be putting it into a scale that would allow it to be readable on a typical pc screen and still be inclusive of the diverse community which is now Orthodoxy. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Dear Nikolai, Well, I'm a bit wary of saying this, given all the republicans on this forum ( ), but I'm distantly related to the person on your avatar . . . But I've no pretensions whatsoever! And, in Ukrainian, the term for Presbytera would be "Pani-Maty" as "Pani-Mat'ka" would be Russian. People would still use "Dobrodijka" but that can be applied to any kind lady. And the terrible "Pani Yimost" is Polish and could also refer to any woman. Is your jurisdiction the one that has the miraculous icon of St Tsar Nicholas? Alex
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Dear Neil, You are quite right. But Nikolai here sometimes provokes me to the point of over-extending myself . . . Alex
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic: Dear Nikolai,
Well, I'm a bit wary of saying this, given all the republicans on this forum ( ), but I'm distantly related to the person on your avatar . . . But I've no pretensions whatsoever!
And, in Ukrainian, the term for Presbytera would be "Pani-Maty" as "Pani-Mat'ka" would be Russian.Alex, So we have this in common too, having royal blood. My name actually is a variation on the term "First Son of Tsar Stanoslaus". The Russian would be Matushka, but I have seen Ukrainians using Panimaty, Panimatyka or even Panimatushka! In Christ, -'Nikolai' http://EuphrosynosCafe.com
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