www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Bartholomew says reunion with Catholics is inevitable

I apologize. You asked the question. I felt it deserved an answer.

I struggle with these things. Truth matters, but so does charity towards those who are attempting to follow Christ.

Christ is born!

You gave a great answer, IR. FWIW, saying these things out loud is a good thing. Pretending they aren't important, don't matter much.....or actually believing them.....is why we have a church in crisis at present. I'm speaking of the RCC.

The worst part---and most obviously wrong part---of Penal Substitutionary Atonement is that it forces the Holy Trinity to be at odds with eachother, especially the Father and The Son. It not only paints God the Father in a horrible, false and blasphemous way....but it paints God the Son as disobedient!

IE, The Father is super angry with all this sin and MUST vent His rage by punishing every single sin. But, despite this The Son steps in and says, "No Father. Punish me instead." !!!!!! <----------whacky in the extreme.

Imagine you're a parent and some neighbor kids were caught breaking windows and puncturing tires on cars around the neighborhood. Your kid wasn't involved at all. So, what's a parent to do in this case? Why, punish your own innocent kid in place of the guilty, putting all guilt from the vandals on your own kid and sending him to juvenile hall for a couple months of course!<--------this is false teaching.......but it's what many Catholics and nearly all protestants believe.

Thankfully, the Eastern churches do not. Well, at least on paper they don't. This latin influence is still very, very strong in the Eastern Catholic Churches, which is a shame.

RE Unity: The question here is will there be enough humility for repentance? How is it possible to have unity without humility? How can things be made right if we never admit there is anything wrong?

Christ is Born!!

IR:

Forgive me, but where in any post I made does this come up? Where did I ask a question that would lead to this?

Bob

My friend and brother, you asked the following:

Well, I certainly do not think it will come about by clawing at and scowling about our liturgical practices and reforms that may have taken place centuries ago, and when we did what to whom. Is it not time to heal the deep wounds that have been inflicted by both sides? The Church needs truthful and humble dialogue, not stern warnings not to participate in the monastic Evensong of the "other side" because they baptize by pouring and not immersion and other such inconsequentials. This believer is in the dark. Can you tell me what those massive theological, soteriological and anthropological problems are for believers who take the faith seriously?

You know, ever since I returned to the vows of my baptism by God's grace some 50 years ago, I have heard a constant litany of warnings that part of obtaining the felicity of eternal life and avoiding hell is that we beieve the truth and believe it rightly. This was especially pounded into me day and night by the Anabaptist Fundamentalist groups in which I spent the first 13 years of serious Bible study and worship. When I came into the apostolic and ancient faith, I found that the Early Fathers and Patristics were no less strident in their opposition against error and their anathemas against all false beliefs.

So what am I supposed to do? Beleive that this doesn't matter? Be quiet for the sake of ...... being a good little boy? Not making waves?

Seriously????

It is seeming more and more like truth is of little concern or consequence in this world.

Once again, said withtout teeth ..... you asked a question. I felt it only fair to answer.

Irish/Ruthenian, Bob is correct in wondering how you pulled him into this, for it was I who asked the question as you might observe from the quote above. Those "massive theological, soteriological and anthropological problems" that you have outlined seem to me to be more the problems you have in understanding western Catholic thought than is the thought itself that you rather lengthily caricatured in the piece you penned on Christmas day. May I humbly suggest that you take the time to read paragraphs 402 thru 411 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to get a better understanding of western Catholic thought on the questions of Original Justice and Sin.

Living in town that gave birth to New England Puritanism, I can assure you that my western Catholic brothers and sisters do not share the same "gloom & doom" of these early Calvinist settlers, unless they have been tainted by the miasma that some times rises from Cotton Mather's tomb.

Christ is Born!!

If you take a look at all the posts to this thread, you will find that it was Utroque who posted what you have attributed to me.

Bob

Whooops...........

*where's the head hanging in shame icon?*

I'm 70 years old. Can I claim "old age insanity" as a plea regarding my errant ascribing of posts?

As for not sharing the gloom and doom, do not the vapors of this saint and others hang over the Roman Church as a mist of despair?

"Pious souls, you may leave; this sermon is not for you. Its sole purpose is to contain the pride of libertines who cast the holy fear of God out of their heart and join forces with the devil who, according to the sentiment of Eusebius, damns souls by reassuring them. To resolve this doubt, let us put the Fathers of the Church, both Greek and Latin, on one side; on the other, the most learned theologians and erudite historians; and let us put the Bible in the middle for all to see. Now listen not to what I will say to you – for I have already told you that I do not want to speak for myself or decide on the matter – but listen to what these great minds have to tell you, they who are beacons in the Church of God to give light to others so that they will not miss the road to heaven. In this manner, guided by the triple light of faith, authority and reason, we will be able to resolve this grave matter with certainty.

Note well that there is no question here of the human race taken as a whole, nor of all Catholics taken without distinction, but only of Catholic adults, who have free choice and are thus capable of cooperating in the great matter of their salvation. First let us consult the theologians recognized as examining things most carefully and as not exaggerating in their teaching: let us listen to two learned cardinals, Cajetan and Bellarmine. They teach that the greater number of Christian adults are damned, and if I had the time to point out the reasons upon which they base themselves, you would be convinced of it yourselves. But I will limit myself here to quoting Suarez. After consulting all the theologians and making a diligent study of the matter, he wrote, "The most common sentiment which is held is that, among Christians, there are more damned souls than predestined souls."

Add the authority of the Greek and Latin Fathers to that of the theologians, and you will find that almost all of them say the same thing. This is the sentiment of Saint Theodore, Saint Basil, Saint Ephrem, and Saint John Chrysostom. What is more, according to Baronius it was a common opinion among the Greek Fathers that this truth was expressly revealed to Saint Simeon Stylites and that after this revelation, it was to secure his salvation that he decided to live standing on top of a pillar for forty years, exposed to the weather, a model of penance and holiness for everyone. Now let us consult the Latin Fathers. You will hear Saint Gregory saying clearly, "Many attain to faith, but few to the heavenly kingdom." Saint Anselm declares, "There are few who are saved." Saint Augustine states even more clearly, "Therefore, few are saved in comparison to those who are damned." The most terrifying, however, is Saint Jerome. At the end of his life, in the presence of his disciples, he spoke these dreadful words: "Out of one hundred thousand people whose lives have always been bad, you will find barely one who is worthy of indulgence." (St. Leonard of Port St. Maurice - Sermon on the Little Number of those who are Saved)

I realize that we are straying off the rails now, yet I would ask this" how is such a truncated view of Christ's magnificent work on the Cross for mankind any sort of "Good News" at all???? This is Joy To The World???? Or is it more "Joy to the 1% Who Will Actually Get Saved?"

There was a reason that Luther lost his mind, and I lay it directly at the feet of Medieval theology and Luther's intense sense of a God who would pick at every little fault at the Judgment Seat. A stern and severe Judge rather than a Father.

I'm gonna stop here. I've already goe way afield of the OP and this thread and I don't mean to sidetrack the issue. I'm getting wound up and when I get wound up.......I can go for HOURS!!! on this subject.

God bless you and all the best to you!

I'm a lot older than you, I/R, but do not hang your head. Raise it up and forever work for that unity that the Ecumenical Patriarch sees as inevitable. It will come if you work at it as he and the Bishop of Rome does. I'm lucky; I have a Greek Catholic Church and an Orthodox Church within walking distance of my front door. I'm doing my level best to cement bonds. The past exists only as a memory; the future awaits. We have only the present. Prayerfully use it. Christus Natus Est!

umm yes he is

Glorifica Eum!