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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Feb 2022
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For anyone Orthodox, I'm curious: How do you/ the greater Orthodox churches to the best of your knowledge perceive Patriarch Kirill's recent comments on Ukraine? Does fascist messaging from the top undermine the credibility of the ROC in the eyes of EO? I guess maybe a more general question about what happens when a patriarchate is compromised (like the puppet patriarchs of the USSR). Is the patriarch still valid?
I've been slowly drifting from Roman Catholicism to EO, but the Greek/Russian infighting and ROC vitriol for Ukraine have me concerned, to say the least.
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Joined: May 2007
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I've been slowly drifting from Roman Catholicism to EO, ... Any consideration given to the Eastern Catholic churches?
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Joined: Dec 2021
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As someone who looked very seriously into Orthodoxy at one point, the Russian Orthodox church's entanglement with the Russian state always gave me serious pause. This is a portion of Patriarch Kirill's homily on Feb 27: Today we also need unity - the unity with our brothers and sisters in Ukraine. We are aware of the difficult circumstances encountered today by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate. I especially prayed today for His Beatitude the Primate and certainly for the whole episcopate and all the faithful people of Ukraine; and I call you to lift up these prayers too. God forbid that the present political situation in fraternal Ukraine so close to us should be aimed at making the evil forces that have always strived against the unity of Rus’ and the Russian Church, gain the upper hand. God forbid that a terrible line stained with the blood of our brothers should be drawn between Russia and Ukraine. We should pray for the restoration of peace, for the restoration of good fraternal relations between our peoples. A guarantee of this fellowship is our united Orthodox Church represented in Ukraine by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church headed by His Beatitude Onuphry. We prayed for them today as well. We prayed that the Lord may give them strength and wisdom to repulse the attacks of the evil one while serving their people in faith and truth promoting peace by all possible ways.
May the Lord preserve our Church in unity. May the Lord protect from fratricidal battle the peoples comprising the one space of the Russian Orthodox Church. It must not be allowed to give the dark and hostile external forces an occasion to laugh at us; we should do everything to preserve peace between our peoples while protecting our common historical Motherland against every outside action that can destroy this unity.
Today we lift up a special prayer for His Beatitude Onuphry, for our Church and for our devout faithful. May the Lord preserve the Russian land. When I say “Russian”, I use the ancient expression from “A Tale of Bygone Years” - “Wherefrom has the Russian land come”, the land which now includes Russia and Ukraine and Belarus and other tribes and peoples. That the Lord may protect the Russian land against external enemies, against internal disorders, that the unity of our Church may strengthen and that by God’s mercy all the temptations, diabolical attacks, provocations may retreat and that our devout people in Ukraine may enjoy peace and tranquillity - these are our prayers today. And I ask you all to mention His Beatitude Onuphry in year prayers in church and at home, to mention our brothers and sisters in Ukraine and to pray for peace. Source: https://mospat.ru/en/news/89032/There are many things in this that are disturbing, especially the statement that Ukraine, Belarus, and other places are Russian lands, and the implication that the resistance of Ukraine is one of the "evil forces" fighting against the "unity of Rus'". To their credit, at least 176 Russian Orthodox priests have publicly opposed the war (opposition to which has a high price tag in Russia) : https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-orthodox-clerics-stop-war-ukrane/31730667.htmlWhile I have never doubted the holiness and faith of many of the Russian Orthodox believers, as evidenced by these priests, institutionally speaking it's difficult for me to see where the Russian state ends and the church begins.
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Interesting article. Thanks for posting.
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Joined: Dec 2021
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“Who desire to be at war and fight against Holy Russia”? Fr. Deacon Lance, Get the feeling of being in the Twilight Zone. His Holiness must believe the State propaganda media. Or, he's fully invested in Putin's dream of restoring ancient Rus, which the Ukrainians do not share. There are allegations that Patriarch Kirill was a member of the KGB, as well as his predecessor Patriarch Alexy II, so involvement in state propaganda would be expected: https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/04/secret-roots-liberation-theology/https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/feb/12/1(note that there are much less charitable and more polemical sources of info on this than these two, but I tried to find the most reliable ones) I don't know whether this is true or not, but I find these allegations to be very plausible, and more so each day. We know that the Soviet government thoroughly infiltrated the Russian Orthodox church, and tried to use it as a government propaganda arm. The statements about the war on Ukraine by the Patriarch fit with that sort of a mission.
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Joined: Aug 1998
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I don’t know that they are unproven. KGB files were released that named them as well as their codenames. It is the level of involvement that is disputed.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Bob,
I'd tend to agree with Deacon Lance and given that Joseph has indeed referenced valid sources, I'd recommend restoring the post to the thread.
As to PMs, he's been here almost 4 months, I'll message John to give him privileges.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Joined: Aug 1998
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I would also add the time for worrying about Russian feelings is over for me. Putin has Archbishop Sviatoslav on a hit list and Patriarch Kyrill sanctions it through his encouragement for this unjust war and silence of the atrocities. Enough Ostpolitik.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 123 Likes: 21
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Hello, I am a new member , a Ukrainian Catholic from central PA. Of course, the above posts are of great interest to me.
It is my observation that both Putin and Patriarch Kirill are living in some fantasy of a glorious past that they think must be revived. A past, symbolized by the double headed eagle- the bicephalous emblem of " Holy Rus" which united temporal and spiritual power. ( That power, directly inherited from the fallen Byzantine Empire.) Their desire for geographical " unity" is their constructive way of saying " empire". Putin wants to ba a Tsar........and Kirill sees himself as the spiritual half of the eagle's two heads...........But why? Because their power, temporal and spiritual, is threatened by the West and its notions of free- thinking, its emphasis on human rights and equality. Plus, they see the world becoming increasingly global and they live in a nationalistic past. Their attitudes are not unlike Muslim theocrats in the Middle East.
The immediate outcome of all of this is anybody's guess. However, History ( and eventually Russia herself) will condemn Putin as an archaic monster. Kirill and the ROC need to drastically reposition themselves to avoid the same.
I say this with much respect for Russian, and all, Orthodox Christians. It is just that....... in my opinion, The Moscow hierarchy is making grave mistakes.
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Joined: Aug 1998
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Joined: Aug 1998
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My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 123 Likes: 21
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Thank you for providing the link above. This puts things into an even clearer perspective. The double headed eagle is siamese.
If Putin and Kirill succeed, not only will Ukraine lose self- determination, the Ukrainian Catholic Church will return to the catacombs. You can bet that a new " pseudo synod of Lviv/ 1946, " will happen........this time including the newly autocephalous UO. Very disturbing.
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 109 Likes: 5
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This thread has mentioned Patriarch Kiril's involvement, but I am curious if forum members have heard anything about Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev. I have read a few of his works and was hoping to read more. I really can't find a lot of information about Alfeyev's involvement in Putin's fratricide, at least online in English. Perhaps you all will have more information.
Hutsul,
I grew up in Osceola Mills. I assumed you attend St. Mary's in Ramey. I have visited there a few times in the past, a nice gem in Central PA.
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Joined: Mar 2022
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The few statements that I read coming from Hilarion (and ROCOR / New York.) are prayerful, yet politically cautious. I don't envy ROCOR's dilema here. They are between a rock and a hard place. I too would like to hear more about their stance.
Devin1890,.....Yup, I attend St. Mary's in Ramey! Thank you for the compliment on our church. Osceola, likewise, has a marvelous little Orthodox Church in addition to a Latin Rite parish.
The large wall icons in the nave of St. Mary's were painted ( written) by me. Feel free to PM me sometime.
Slava Ukraini
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,334 Likes: 96
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Christ is in our midst!!
Hutsul,
We use the title of bishops on this forum, out of respect for the office they hold. So, Patriarch Kirill and Metropolitan Hilarion.
Bob
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