www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Who within the diocese should I turn to?

I have been struggling to get our two local RC priests to commune my three children (ages 4, 5 and 8 months old). One priest is from the Philippines and, understandaby, has zero knowledge about the Eastern Catholic Churches. He continues to assume we're "outside" the Catholic Church, despite all my attempts to show him otherwise. The other priest is from Mexico and a pastoral guy. He accomodated us for a time for my two older children, but just blind sided us last week and again last Sunday, saying that other parents were upset when they saw my children receiving and then asked why their children (similar ages) could not. I've offered numerous times to make an announcement to explain to the parish ahead of time that my family is Byzantine, that in our tradition children receive all the Mysteries at birth and that it's 100% approved by Rome (since that's what they'd need to hear to put their minds at ease). But he won't do it and keeps using the excuse that it would scandalize the parish as a means of denying my children communion. They were especially hurt since they used to be able to receive and then he changed his mind and cut them off.

What is the point of being in communion with Rome, when they don't even acknowledge us as Catholics? We were better off in our Orthodox Mother Churches. These priests are in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Does anyone know whom I need to reach out to to help mediate this situation? My children have a canonical right to Holy Communion and I won't let anyone infringe upon that right.

Now, were we just to attend the roman mass once in a while, I'd let the whole thing go. But since our Ruthenian parish is too far away to attend daily, and since I'm off for the summer with my kids, I plan on taking them to daily Mass. So it's a very big deal for me that they are being denied Holy Communion. Has anyone experienced anything similar? How did you overcome the situation? Thanks in advance.

Ruthenian, this is a touchy problem. As a Byzantine, I sympathize with your frustration. But here is a little trivia that might ease the situation:

" When in Rome, do as the Roman's do"

"The origin of the saying can actually be traced back to the 4th century AD when the Roman Empire was undergoing much instability and had already split in two. St Augustine, an early Christian saint, moved to Milan to take up a role as a professor of rhetoric. Unlike in his previous church in Rome, he found the congregation didn’t fast on Saturdays.
The older and wiser St Ambrose, at that time the bishop of Milan, offered up some sage words. ‘Romanum venio, ieiuno Sabbato; hic sum, non ieiuno: sic etiam tu, ad quam forte ecclesiam veneris, eius morem serva, si cuiquam non vis esse scandalum nec quemquam tibi.’

In other words, ‘when I go to Rome, I fast on Saturday, but here I do not. Do you also follow the custom of whatever church you attend, if you do not want to give or receive scandal [?]’

St Augustine later wrote down the prudent words of St Ambrose in a letter allowing modern scholars to pinpoint the origins of the expression to a particular event in history. Sources date the letter from between 387–390

https://theculturetrip.com/europe/i...saying-when-in-rome-do-as-the-romans-do/

I hope your situation comes to a resolution..........

Yeah that answer doesn't work for me. My children are fully initiated and have the same right, even in Roman canon law, they have a canonical right to holy communion. Roman priest ignorance is no excuse to me.

But it's fine. This was the last straw for me lol. I can't keep living this half life anymore. I try and try and try to justify staying Byzantine Catholic and try to be authentically Byzantine, but our parish is heavily latinized, our priest is heavily latinized, most of the EC's I encounter online have their latinizations they hold to. We are not and should not be Roman Catholic in "anything".

We have everything in common with the Eastern Orthodox, except full communion. We have nothing in common with Rome, except full communion. That's how we should be living our Orthodox faith. But it seems the only ones who even try to do this are the Melkites. And as there are no Melkites near me, I'm back to square one. Choosing between one Antiochian Orthodox Church, two horrendous Roman churches, and a long commute to our heavily latinized Ruthenian Church. It's back to Antioch for me. Pray for me brothers and sisters. This decision will likely cause another tremendous wedge between my wife and I, but I can't back down anymore. My children and I will be authentically Byzantine and remove ourselves from communion with Rome and her errors.

A letter to the Latin bishop and this will be cleared up.

Terrible situation.

I'm in a similar one, but the fight is WITHIN MY OWN CHURCH. The Romans around here don't care, the Byzantine Catholics communion my kids, and even the Orthodox sister churches communion us with no problem - BUT OUR OWN CHURCH REFUSES due to latinized mindset. I pray there to be a nearby Church of our background we could move to without familial distress.

Really? You would leave the Ruthenian Catholic Church because of that one issue?

Perhaps we could resurrect earlier discussions about just what Latinization really is.

Latinizations exist within the various Orthodox Churches. There were Kyivan Orthodox Saints, such as St Dimitry (Tuptalenko) who promoted all kinds of wonderful Western devotions that enriched the Ukrainian patrimony and enraged the Russians.

We Ukrainians have something of a hightened antipathy toward all things Russian nowadays, not to mention the Russian Orthodox Church.

For us, "Byzantine" has come to mean "state-controlled church" more than anything having to do with rituals. And the Russian Orthodox Church has its share of Latinizations such as the Psalter of the Mother of God which is sing in churches by them and which is based on the earlier work by none other than St Bonaventure.

Stay with the Ruthenian EC Church. That is who you really are, your family is rooted in it and think about what it is that is really upsetting you. I believe it isn't simply Latinizations.

We truly consider ourselves to be "Orthodox Catholics." Orthodox don't consider us in that way at all. However, if I were going to compare what the EC"s believe and practice with what the Orthodox do (and in the past, I too have agonized over this), it always came back to me that the EC Churches by being in communion with Rome believe as the Orthodox Eastern Church believed from the beginning and for over a thousand years.

If the Orthodox may show me that their faith and practice today is the same as it was in the first thousands years of the Church, then we really wouldn't have any argument against joining our "Mother Orthodox Churches." I have always liked that term but that too is contingent upon our Mothers today believing what our "Grandmothers" of the first millenium believed too.

True, indeed. I suppose one could say that the increased use of icons in Roman churches is a "Byzantinization", but what of it. Ultimately we are all One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Actually, I wish they would bring back more Latinizations in the Latin rite; like a little Gregorian chant once in a while. Visita nos quaesimus, Domine...

Dear Utroque,

Interesting you should say that! My father was always against "Latinizations" but had really no idea what that was all about. His idea of Latinization to avoid was precisely the Gregorian chant! And it is a beautiful, haunting chant!

As you say, there is overlap and, frankly, there is nothing wrong with that.

Religion in North America, like everything else, tends to follow a consumerism model where we pick and choose what we like BECAUSE we like it and weld it all together into some sort of amalgam.

I love all things Ethiopian. Does that make me susceptible to "creeping Copticization...?" Is it something that should keep me awake at night?

The Ruthenian Catholic Church celebrates Our Lady of Guadalupe AND the feast of St Photios the Great. So which way does that Church's ritual pendulum swing? Back and forth, I would imagine...

I think that the idea of changing churches because another church won't accommodate you . . . why should it? The question should really be about our closeness to Christ.

Is the issue of young children receiving Communion a matter of (spiritual) life or death? Is it the ultimate marker for being close to Christ and in Christ?

Are we not, as Christians, called to Communion with Christ as a whole? I just don't see it as a Byzantine Catholic deal-breaker.

And I'm asking, not telling. These are issues the Byzantine Forum has discussed over the years and they will always be things we will wonder about.

Print out copies of this pamphlet and give one each to the priests involved: When Eastern Catholics Commune at a Roman Catholic Mass [stsophiaukrainian.cc]

I recommend you contact Fr. Alexei Smith, pastor of Saint Andrew Russian Greek Catholic Church [standrewelsegundo.org] in El Segundo, CA.

He is the Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs Officer for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Although this isn't an ecumenical matter, he can certainly provide guidance and maybe even present this matter to Archbishop José Gómez.


In fact, there was a similar case which you need to read about:
IF I MAY: OUR CASE IS HEARD by Richard R. Velazquez [melkite.org]

My first though is that as a member of a Church (Eparchy of Diocese) I have a bishop. If I have a problem with another Church, especially a different ritual Church that I attend, I should expect guidance and support from my bishop. But should not the situations that can arise have been anticipated and dealt with already? We live in the age of information and the USCCB, for instance, has regular meetings. The protocols for dealing with the interactions of the faithful among the various ritual Churches should be a priority, as least as guidelines if not policy.

We hear so much about diversity but fail in practice to appreciation (yet alone celebrate) the diversity within our household of the Catholic Church, a diversity that goes unknown or unappreciated.

Write to your bishop and follow what he says.