I'm a Traditional Latin Masser and I need to know more about the East. I was raised by staunch sedevacantists and I've only recently approached the church as it stands today. I'm very familiar with Sedevacantist, SSPX, and Latin-Mass-Traditionalist theories, mentality, and more, but I believe there's more to Catholicism than the Latin Mass. That said, I'm not at peace with the Novus Ordo world which doesn't fit my deep love, understanding, and respect for religion. When I worship, I need affirmations that the Holy of Holies is present, that sacrifice is taken seriously, and that God recognizes Himself in what is being offered mentally, spiritually, and liturgically. I don't wish to offend anyone by such comments, I just don't know how else to describe the things I feel in various Novus Ordo services. I have a profound respect for the sacred and the secret; I need it to be deeply embodied at the place I call church and/or "home". The spirit of the East is "familiar" to me in a way I can't describe; I've never really experienced Eastern Catholicism but the small introduction I've had made a huge impression.
That being said, there are no Eastern (Catholic) churches in my neighborhood. I have attended a Byz. mission that is hours away, but it's run by a Roman bi-ritual priest and it didn't have the same eastern, deeply spiritual, and homey feeling that I sensed much more profoundly at the neighborhood Orthodox. I don't understand why I am so much more attracted/fulfilled at the neighborhood Orthodox church vs the Catholic mission. Both places have been established for years, but the Orthodox immediately felt like a real home despite them being technically schismatic. I've been told before that I have a deeply eastern spirituality and I thought I would fit right in at the Catholic mission. I don't, and I'm not sure if it's just less ethnic and has a more Romanized feel or what. Any thoughts or shared experiences would be appreciated.
That aside, I wondered if the USA Eastern Churches have problems with liturgical abuse and/or modernization as much as the Roman Church does. (Again, I don't wish to offend/accuse anyone by that comment/question.) I would very much like the Byzantine Church to be a haven of faith and spirituality for my future family, but I have no idea how similar Byzantine services & traditions might be depending on the pastor, etc.. I'm used to the Roman debate about the "extraordinary Latin form" and the "ordinary Novus Ordo form", along with the very different lay communities they foster. The contrast is striking, and the differences between these 'worlds' seem huge. Do the Byzantine's have this as well?
To conclude, it would be easy to fit right in with the Orthodox, but I'm afraid I can't accept the dogmatic differences and pass them on to family. I just feel like something of a lost pilgrim/foreigner and I'm trying to find a 'fit' with limited resources. I'm deeply in love with the ancient beauty, reverence, and depth of organic liturgy and patristic spirituality, and I would love to join an eastern community somewhere that does too. Any comments, corrections, or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Welcome to the forum!! We hope your time with us will be spiritually beneficial.
That being said, we welcome all Eastern Christians here, both in and outside communion with the Bishop of Rome. Those of our brothers and sisters who do not share communion with us we do not refer to as being "schismatic." That term is dated in Catholic practice, since Vatican 2. As you will learn here, who separated from whom is a matter of who is writing history. And, IMHO, that history is one to make everyone ashamed and sorrowful. I, for one, count each and every person on this board as a fellow pilgrim, regardless of where they find themselves in terms of their worshiping community.
Another thing you will find is that there is "liturgical abuse" wherever you go and many times it is in the eye of the person looking for it. Communities differ, even within the same ritual Church, regardless of whether they are in communion with Rome or not. Regardless, we are all trying to "get it right" with Christ and follow Him.
Thank you for the info and the education. I am so sorry for the labeling of 'schismatic.' I come from a world where such terms are tossed around very frequently, and I actually really appreciate the more familial outlook here. Someone at the Orthodox church referred to me as a "first cousin", -not a schismatic, and I was very warmed by it. I'll try to be more considerate when I speak.
Do I ever relate to your dilemma. After much prayer and consideration, I am going to be received into the Orthodox (Greek) Church this fall. To me, Christian life is all about what you wrote, the Divine Presence and giving myself to the Holy Trinity during the Divine Liturgy. It is a sad state of affairs when the issue becomes the validity of which "garage you park your car in", rather than, being helped toward the road of repentance, where the Lord waiting for each of us. You are certainly singing my song when you share about the depth of Eastern Christian spirituality. I am a very great sinner in dire need of healing. Sadly, I have found no healing in Western, rationalistic, testosterone driven, religious imperialism. I have honestly tried to find healing in the West, but was fed more of the same and had the fire of the Spirit snuffed out like a wick on a candle. There is great healing in the sacramental emphasis of Orthodoxy which sees the Church as a hospital for sinners. For me, I cannot go anywhere other than the spiritual ER of Orthodoxy. In the sacraments, regarded not as a goal, but rather as part of the medicinal treatment for our healing, the Great Physician is IN and taking new patients! Praise God! " O Lamb of God, I come, I come!". As I leave, I pray God's blessings on my brothers and sisters united to Rome. What is more important is that we are united in Christ. Without holiness, none of us will see the Lord, regardless of where "our cars are parked"... and really, isn't this what it's all about? Pray for me.
It is a sad state of affairs when the issue becomes the validity of which "garage you park your car in", rather than, being helped toward the road of repentance, where the Lord waiting for each of us. You are certainly singing my song when you share about the depth of Eastern Christian spirituality. I am a very great sinner in dire need of healing. Sadly, I have found no healing in Western, rationalistic, testosterone driven, religious imperialism. I have honestly tried to find healing in the West, but was fed more of the same and had the fire of the Spirit snuffed out like a wick on a candle. There is great healing in the sacramental emphasis of Orthodoxy which sees the Church as a hospital for sinners.
Wow, you nailed it, -both what I and my fiancé have been feeling. I read somewhere that when the great schism happened: "the East lost it's head and the West lost it's heart." I can't stop replaying those words in my soul when it comes to finding a true "body" of faith; it would seem like Christ Himself was rent in two, and that the troubles of the church today go back much much further than the renowned second Vatican council. I look at church as a place to fall down and kiss the earth before God, not a place where I can prove my political and intellectual correctness to Him and everyone else. I struggle a lot with the arguments that ravage traditional(ism) to the point that traditionalism seems to exist for arguments sake. When conservatism, purity, correctness, and tradition become goals in themselves, God Himself seems very obscured and practically set aside. Mystery is dashed to pieces for the sake of protecting the law; humanity seems dashed to pieces for the sake of protecting the textbook. I like to think that God mutually works with both, where one is actually benefitting the other: that it's not a one street to soulful burnout. "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." -The law was made for the soul, and not the soul for the law. The soul was made for "Soli Deo", -God alone. If we lose sight of Him, what's the point of law...?
Right now, I find soulful conviction is what speaks to me the most and I haven't found much of it in the Roman world. Passion is not the same as conviction, and I think that it is conviction which actually transforms a person. I find 'belief' can't be soul deep if it just sits around in your head all day. -It has to transform the heart. I can't help thinking about St. Paul's mention of, "sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal," when it's all about politics or externalism. I don't have any experience with Eastern Catholicism aside from the mission, but yeah, I definitely sensed something with the Orthodox.
I will definitely be praying for you, son of the desert, as I continue my discernment, as well as for all kindred spirits. I've decided to be open minded without judgments of any sort so that I can just "let God." -Let God speak/act as He wishes in my regard.
I am wholly disposed to seeking the Lord with my heart. He knows how often I have failed HIm, even with right dogmatic knowledge. So, the only hope a guy like me can have is that the Lord will see my heart and have mercy on me. I love good solid thinking. I love philosophical speculation. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with good scholarship. However it has been my experience that solid scholarship has not helped to heal me from my sins. I am sure that I do not have the humility for such knowledge and that is why. Regardless, I stand in constant need of the mercy of the Lord. Good scholarship can only reach those who can masticate it's "word salads". It is meant for the religious experts among us, not for the everyday person, working 9-5 and whose heart burns within them for something which they may or may not know. May I make two suggestions.
1. Read "The Way of a Pilgrim" translated by Helen Bacovin. This book started me on the way in 1987, I have read it several times as I find fresh inspiration each time I read it. Our search for relationship with the Living God should always be accompanied with a sense of wonder, such as perhaps what Abraham felt when he was called to set out on his journey. The difference with us is that the destination is known, relationship with the Holy Trinity.
2. Watch this movie (see the link following). I think that it best expresses that it is the simple, or perhaps the "poor in spirit" that hear the call within their hearts to seek the Lord from the heart. This film captures the "wonder' that accompanies such a journey.
I will be received into the Church this Sunday. This has not been a search for the "right" Church (Jesus' Body is still One) or even the "perfect" Church, which becomes imperfect the moment a guy like me is received. This has always and only been a search for a culture of repentance, where I might seek the Lord with my heart as well as a means (The Divine Liturgy) where I might be able to "climb the hill of the Lord" and offer myself to Him warts and all.. This has not been a search for anything historical or historically superior. It has not been a journey for disparagement of those whom I have loved and who have loved me and sought to the best of their ability to serve me. It is with a heart of love that I am received into the Greek Orthodox Church. if you wish to correspond by email please pm me and I will give it to you.
I find myself in a space in between the two journeys recounted here by son of the desert and MillaMarie. I’ve been attending a Byzantine Catholic parish for the last year-ish (probably a little longer) and have been STRONGLY considering transferring rites. I was not raised a Catholic, but came into the church as a result of my experience with the Latin Mass not knowing there was an Eastern Church. When Traditiones Custodes resulted in my local Latin Mass being taken away, my family and I sought refuge in the Eastern church and I’m now inclined to regard my time in the Western church as a sojourn rather than vice versa.
I share many of the same questions that MillaMarie has but, as a father of young children, I’m struggling with some of the more practical issues of the logistics of Eastern Catholic churches generally (e.g. their limited availability) and how transferring rites may impact my sons ability to receive sacraments later on (like marriage) due to how few Eastern churches there are. Currently, we live in an area that provides relatively easy access to a Ruthenian church (it’s a great parish community to boot), but it’s existence in our area is almost an accident of history. Any insight from those who have transferred rites and been in locations where they couldn’t access an Eastern Catholic Church would be appreciated.
When Traditiones Custodes resulted in my local Latin Mass being taken away, my family and I sought refuge in the Eastern church and I’m now inclined to regard my time in the Western church as a sojourn rather than vice versa. I share many of the same questions that MillaMarie has but, as a father of young children, I’m struggling with some of the more practical issues of the logistics of Eastern Catholic churches generally (e.g. their limited availability) and how transferring rites may impact my sons ability to receive sacraments later on (like marriage) due to how few Eastern churches there are. Currently, we live in an area that provides relatively easy access to a Ruthenian church (it’s a great parish community to boot), but it’s existence in our area is almost an accident of history. Any insight from those who have transferred rites and been in locations where they couldn’t access an Eastern Catholic Church would be appreciated.
Chooch factor, I'm sorry you lost your Latin Mass location but what a blessing that God provided you access to an Eastern parish. I sympathize with your concerns, especially for your family. Eastern communities do indeed seem rather small and quite scattered. If a person does change rites within Catholicism though, inter-marriages are allowed. An Eastern-rite could marry a Latin-rite for example without either party actually "changing rites". One bishop or the other would merely have to give a waiver of sorts saying that the 'other rite' can conduct the ceremony. (I believe this is how it works; someone correct me if I'm wrong.) When it comes to children, they traditionally adopt the rite of the father, but I've seen families with older children who were baptized into the Latin rite, and younger who were baptized into an Eastern. There's quite of bit of grace/flexibility for such things I think. (If you were to change to Eastern Orthodoxy though, it would be different.) A couple of Youtube stars that are Latin crossovers would be Matt Fradd @ PintswithAquinas, along with Michael Lofton @ Reason&Theology. I'm not sure if Matt Fradd actually changed rites, but he's missed the East whenever his job takes him to an area without Easter Parishes. Michael Lofton is changing to Byzantine rite though he lives in Monroe, Louisiana where he can only get Eastern Liturgy once a month. -You could always try reaching out to these perhaps for further advice and/or videos which might talk about such things. Just a thought. I'll be praying for you and yours, Milla
I will be received into the Church this Sunday. This has not been a search for the "right" Church (Jesus' Body is still One) or even the "perfect" Church, which becomes imperfect the moment a guy like me is received. This has always and only been a search for a culture of repentance, where I might seek the Lord with my heart as well as a means (The Divine Liturgy) where I might be able to "climb the hill of the Lord" and offer myself to Him warts and all.. This has not been a search for anything historical or historically superior. It has not been a journey for disparagement of those whom I have loved and who have loved me and sought to the best of their ability to serve me. It is with a heart of love that I am received into the Greek Orthodox Church. if you wish to correspond by email please pm me and I will give it to you.
Son of the Desert,
Thank you so much for the suggestions. I actually started reading The Way of a Pilgrim in the past and it touched me so deeply that I stopped out of despair of ever finding a 'world' such as I saw in those pages. I have been more optimistic with my experience of the East itself though, and with your encouragement/suggestion I will start again. Though the movie is not Hollywood quality, I was actually quite emotional after it was finished. Honestly, I feel like I've been 'walking straight ahead' since I was a child, trying to 'find God' quite literally. I entered a Latin/Roman convent with high hopes of finding "home", and I never did. I hung tight for six years until my health was ruined, after which I left completely disillusioned. It's been hard to keep the fire alive since then, knowing that the Roman world has not met whatever it is my soul needs. --Thus my recourse to the East and to the Orthodox. I have been on the brink of losing faith before which has put me on a path of utter necessity, A path that spurs me to be open minded and more humble about my weaknesses. I am a sinner too, more so in moments of frustration and disillusion. The simplicity that this film speaks of is something my heart craves in just about every aspect. God is infinitely simple; we can know this by prayerful experience and by observing creation itself. Nevertheless, it is we prideful creatures that destroy the nature of simplicity (and prayer) in so many ways. "Cor ad cor," -Heart to heart is what the soul wants in religion, and it would gladly pay the price of perseverance in virtue if it were able to safely unlearn the complicatedness of modern culture: a culture which is steeped in the extreme of pure rationalism, or in the extreme of totally unchecked passion. Religion everywhere has been so keenly affected by these tipping scales, but it would seem the East has something real with which to counter it. Church means so much more than a liturgy service to me. As you said, it must be a culture: something that transforms your life, not just your Sunday. I think culture itself is what human-beings think of as "home". You can't have a real one without soulful religion and the world is denying that now more than ever. I think honest, good, and faithful people are really feeling the culture of emptiness which has crept up on everyone. The soul has nothing with which to unify itself, and thus it scatters into a million sinfully passionate pieces. Again though, I sensed unity in the East / the Orthodox. I wonder what your experience of the East in Catholicism might of been? Too much like the Roman world?
I would PM you but for some reason it says my current membership level won't allow it. Perhaps you could try to PM me? Maybe that would work.
My heart was broken reading what you have gone through, yet in a way very consoled. I am no kind of spiritual director, in fact, I myself have a spiritual Father and am the last person to discern where someone might be. That being a given, you encouraged me that relationship with God means so much to you that your world has been shaken! It's a privilege to know a person like you! Sometimes religion becomes a box to check in an already full life...job? check? nice vacations? check...relationship? check...house? check...retirement to Florida to play golf with Arnie in "The Villages"? check...insertion into a religion? check...etc...Relationship with God obviously is EVERYTHING to you! Blessed be the Holy Name of Jesus! Know my dear friend that God the Father in Heaven sees the desire of your heart and is moving you toward the fulfillment of what you long for. He is thrilled to have a daughter like you that would stake her entire existence on relationship with Him. So many of us go through the motions and while He will fill even the crack left open in the door of our hearts, He will move heaven and earth to fill those that "hunger and thirst for righteousness". My sister, do not engage any thoughts from the demons that you are a failure in the life of grace. You are being summoned by the Holy Trinity to have relationship! I will PM you as there is much more to say...regardless...you are in a difficult, yet blessed place...like another Lady that I know who became pregnant while engaged to a guy a carpenter named Joseph...
I just tried to PM you and was unable to due to a "limit". Perhaps you would feel comfortable posting your email here. If not, I will post mine. To verify who I am an the veracity of my character and intentions you are welcome to contact my priest and spiritual Father, Fr. Polycarp Ramaeus, Dormition of the Theotokos, Oakmont, Pa. and past Pastor Fr. Joseph Kutch, St. Michael's Catholic Church, Canton, Pa. I realize that one cannot be too careful on the internet, even on boards such as these. I will contact the administrator as well. Let's pray for each other, that we continue to "walk straight ahead"...
Thank you so much for your kind replies. Honestly it means a lot, especially since I often feel as though the evil-one is laughing out loud at my difficulties. If you'd like, I have a disposable/temporary email address which you can send a PM to. That way, any personal email addresses don't have to be posted publicly on the forum. The following address will receive messages for 24 hours before it delete's itself: lewisa44@tbuildersw.com (Hopefully it works like it's supposed to.) I can give you my regular email from there.
I just sent an email to the address you provided. I know what the laughing of the demons sounds like. I know how unpleasant it is. They are laughing to drown out the Voice of the Holy Trinity calling to you with love. It shall not work. Weather their taunts with scripture. Do not engage them. Keep reading "The Way of a Pilgrim" and the scriptures. You are being summoned by the Father Himself for a wonderful relationship. Perhaps the demons have told you that it can never be and that it is all just make believe, a cruel joke of religious fiction. DO NOT BELIEVE IT. IT IS A LIE MEANT TO DISABLE AND STOP YOU IN YOUR SEARCH. May I suggest the Jesus Prayer? The demons HATEI promise to pray for your specifically as soon as I am done writing this post.
...the demons HATE the Holy Name of Jesus. To prove it, my computer submitted the post before I hit submit! Sister, Jesus is Lord and you will find the kind and sweet Presence of the Father soon...hang in there...
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