www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Different Perspective on War in Ukraine

Hello. My name is Todd. This is my first post here. I am a latin rite Roman Catholic and have been attending the Byzantine/Ruthenien rite a lot lately and studying eastern theology and am seriously considering attending the Byzantine rite full time.

Anyways. I watched a sermon by a fssp latin priest about the war in Ukraine. I found it through another forum and it may take some digging to find it because youtube removed it. The priest did not pick sides. He said he didn't have enough knowledge to do so. However, he said that we must consider the fact that this may be a punishment from God. Obviously Ukraine and its president have and are pushing many anti Christian policies such as abortion and homosexuality. The FSSP priest said while many believe Putin is doing the work of the devil, we must consider that he may be doing the work of God in a way. He says what's worse, Putin and the Russians killing many bodies, or Ukraine's president killing many souls/condemning them to hell through the godless ideologies. God has been known to punish nations in order to stop the spread of evil in the past and also to chastise them to bring about their repentance. Tough love I suppose.

Much like this priest says, I don't know nearly enough about these matters to make any concrete decisions and I feel sorry for the innocent people being killed but I do believe this is something that must be considered rather than poor Ukraine, evil Russia rhetoric. Maybe these innocent people who die go to heaven while the war is necessary to stop the spread of Ukraine's evil and dangerous ideas? Again, I don't know enough but maybe it's worth considering.

I will keep trying to find this video. Again, I am new here and I look forward to meeting you all.

Todd4Tradition,

Welcome to the forum.

Bob
Moderator

Yes, very much like much of the Old Testament in general and what some call "First Isaiah" (Isaiah chapters 1 - 39) in particular.

Wow..............unbelieveable.

Who needs to wait for the Parousia, The Second Coming, when we have Putin and a utube wantabe priest to judge the world.

These ideas are not only NOT worth considering, they are sacreligious and contrary to the Gospels.

If we read the Old Testament we will find that God has punished or threatened to punish nations in order to bring about their repentance. How many times did God hand the Jews over to their enemies because of their unfaithfulness? God allowed this in order to bring about their repentance. And when these seemingly horrible situations or war and slavery would occur, eventually the Jews would repent and turn back to their God and He would rescue them so to speak. This sort of thing happens many times in the Old Testament. God I punishes nations to bring about their repentance. He does the same thing with us individually. He chastises to bring about our repentance. Sometimes it takes extreme situations to bring a person or nation to repentance when they've turned so far away from God.

I'm not saying Putin and Russia are doing the right thing or this is a holy war, I don't know nearly enough to make any sort of comment in this regard, but I am saying maybe God is punishing Ukraine to stop the spread of evil ideas and to bring her and wayward people to repentance. God's most worried about the salvation of souls.

Thank you Bob for welcoming me. I'm excited to be here.

Todd4Tradition,

No where has anyone suggested Ukraine is spreading evil ideas or that her people were/are wayward. Vladimir Putin's stated objectives were to re-establish the former Soviet Union by reuniting all the countries that chose to separate themselves from Russia and to "de-Nazify" Ukraine. Trouble is that the countries that chose not to remain part of Russia chose with the memory or the cruelties experienced living under the Russians, from the time of the Romanovs through the Soviet period. Things were never "peaches and cream."

Putin chose the de-Nazify claim to stir up the memories of the Nazi invasion of WW2 to get public opinion behind him. In his mind, anyone who does not share his "Russian World" vision is a Nazi. He has deluded himself with this vision, bolstered by a propagandist who is called his "mentor." Ukraine is a place like Poland whose people have been subjugated by their neighbors throughout their history. Now they would just like to be left alone to live as free individuals. Russia cannot understand that.

No I'm not saying anything about Russian motives. I have next to no knowledge. (Just what may be God's way of dealing with certain nations to convert them. I'm from the United States. Unfortunately I fear it may take a catastrophe to get many of the people from the US to turn back to God and away from anti Christian agendas. I'm just saying that God often brings good out of what we see as horrible situations. God sees what we don't or cannot sometimes. Hopefully this war in Ukraine will lead to some greater good in the end. Before I converted I was addicted to drugs and living a very sinful life. God severely punished me with many health crises which almost killed me. But, this led to my conversion. Without God severely chastising me, I would never had changed and likely lost my soul. Ultimately only God knows what He's doing and why. I suppose all we can do is hope some good comes out of all this and nations and peoples capitalize on these situations to turn to God for help and repent. Hopefully at the end of all this Ukraine becomes a model christian country for all the world. I for one will remember to keep the Ukrainian people in my prayers. I can't imagine what it must be like to be in a situation like that. Hopefully the people of Ukraine turn to the Lord for comfort.

Like Russia doesn’t need converted? You must be very naive or extremely uninformed. Educate yourself before you come to a forum and throw out nonsense theories that are sure to offend many of the members.

Christ is in our midst!!

Todd,

I will never be convinced that the terrible atrocities committed by the Russians against Ukraine are justified by any reason. The mass slaughter of innocent civilians--google Bucha--and the indiscriminate targeting of civilian housing, electricity, water, and other utilities are all war crimes. Unfortunately, I have been advised that Russia is one of two countries that never signed the Geneva Conventions that outline how civilized countries conduct themselves in war and treat prisoners of war. There are credible reports of Russian soldiers who have been captured telling the Ukrainians they were told they were "going on safari" so they could shoot anyone they saw. They were also told that they were hunting Nazis until many got to Ukraine and found out they could find none. The Russians are continuing to use tactics used in Syria where they targeted civilians, hospitals, apartments, utilities, and anything related to Ukrainian culture like libraries and theaters. This is genocide, both of people and culture. God is not in this. He is allowing it to happen, but I fail to see any reason related to anything the Ukrainians have done.

I am so horrified by what Todd has said here ....

If Todd wants to second-guess God's Mind, he is entitled to do that.

President Zelensky wants to defend his people and nation from a man who has convinced the Western Right and so-called "traditionalists" that he is a true Christian leader. As "proof" of that he has shown his willingness to bomb civilian populations wholesale and torture and kill people for the crime of . . .being Ukrainian. The FSB checks the phones of those they capture to see if there are any blue and yellow flags or tridents on them before they begin beating them to death. What Putin is doing has nothing to do with the Christian gospel. The fact that the Moscow patriarchate (MP-FSB) actually blesses the "soldiers" who do this, gives them icons and prays for their well-being . . . is this not satanic?

Does this not excommunicate the MP from Orthodoxy? From Christ? The fact that children are being forcibly kidnapped and taken to Russia to be adopted out to Russian families?? Todd - how about trying to sprinkle some holy water on your person to see if there is any reaction to it?!

Todd promotes the lie that the Ukrainian government somehow promotes abortion and homosexuality. And it does not. It signed onto the European community of nations as a way to strengthen Ukraine's position.

If Todd wants to go after "evil persons" how about the Catholic heads of government of the US and Canada who actively support abortion on demand? You don't have to swim across the Atlantic ocean to find your enemies!

And if the Catholic church would somehow be able to get its OWN members to stop having abortions - that would severely curtail the numbers.

Zelensky is working with the heads of the Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church in Ukraine (Ecumenical Patriarchate) as well as Evangelical Protestants and other faith communities. He is in direct contact with His Holiness the Pope who mentions and bemoans the suffering of Ukraine DAILY and in public. Zelensky is, in fact, an amazing international leader who has shown Putin and his regime for what it is. And Putin and his patriarch are leading Russia down a rabbit hole of sorrow and bankruptcy that has already made it a pariah. The world has finally awakened to the "Christianity" of Putin's Russia. It is high time you did as well, Todd.

I feel this goes beyond simple debate. I cannot believe this Forum hasn't censured these remarks and rejected them formally. I've been censured and given time out for much less in the past.

I've no further comment and will not continue with this Forum.

There have been so many lies from so many governments, one is hard pressed to know what to believe. Nonetheless, I have been watching an "alternative news" program on YouTube and would ask the people here who are more knowledgeable than I am to watch this clip and then tell me if this is truth or propaganda. If it is propaganda, then tell me why it is propaganda and give me dates and links.

Thank you.

First if all, I have made no comments supporting Russia, Putin, or anything political whatsoever. All I have mentioned is the fact that God punishes nations. I Also believe that Canada and the United States will be punished as well if things continue as they are. I believe Zelensky is a poor leader morally just like Joe Biden and many other wayward leaders. Don't think I'm picking on foreign countries with some kind of pride. I'm from the United States and believe the US is just as bad. Nearly the entire world has turned away from Christ and things will get worse and worse. There will be more wars, more natural disasters, more violence until we turn back to Christ. When it comes to all these events, God is either sitting back and doing nothing while we destroy one another and ourselves, or He's using these events to bring the world to repentance. All the destruction and we still don't listen to Him. All you've got to do it read the Old Testament about God's relationship with the Jews and how sometimes seemingly terrible things had to happen for the Jews to finally turn back to God. This was necessary to save souls, not because got was furious and seeking vengeance. My comments have no been political whatsoever, I'm merely trying to speculate about the spiritual side of things.

I think we should just leave it at this and you said. We do not know the mind of God. All we can do is speculate. The only solution to the world's problems is conversion, and yes I include myself as I an far from a good Christian.

"Wait tlll you see what the USA is going to do in Haiti!" Well, the governent there did seek help to stem the chaos; so you might see some help come. This "R" outlet's delivery of their alternate news is a little too cooly cynical for me. Did you hear them imply that the bridge bombing was NATO's activity? Please; Putin and Lavrov couldn't have said it bettter. We may need alternate perspectives, but we don't need alternate realities.

Your comments do have political consequences, however. It's an insidious kind of religious fundamentalism that I abhor. It is no bettter than that of the Jihadists. Proscribing "divine retribution" for the ills of the world is an easy way out. Might you say that the Holocaust was God's punishment to the Jews for.whatever they did? You might benefit from reading Rabbi Harold Kushner's good book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People", and a spiritual and careful reading of the New Testament. Sursum Corda!

President Zelensky and the Ukrainian people want to join the 21st century. They do not want to live under a totalitarian regime that is propped up by a religious leader who has theocratic aspirations.They want to be free, and free of Russia. The fact is, Russia wants to be free too, except their people are afraid to express it, so they are running away.The further fact is, most of the world wants to be free and un- oppressed. Ukraine is the shining star of democratic hope and determination.

I find it so ironic that two thirds of the world is starved for truth and want it so desperately, while people in countries that have access to information call it fake news. We  prefer outrageous conspiracy theories, outlandish lies and ridiculous opinions. We have the transparency and the facts before us, but cannot let go of fiction, a fiction born of stubbornness and appetite for drama.  And those that concoct the fictions, shamelessly revel in their notoriety all the way to the bank......until an occassionional Alex Jones gets held accountable......but that's rare.

And then, ever present,  are the self righteous- those who would impose their personal morality on a population who have a diversity of beliefs or, perhaps, choose not to believe at all. They study scriptures and come to the conclusion that their interpretation fits neatly into their politics. Or, perhaps, they seek out in scripture, passages, ideas that explain personal shotcomings or justify their intolerances. Either way, it's now their Truth, and the crusade begins. But the crusade is full of irreconcilable inconsistancies. There is a vast disconnect between punishment and understanding what forgiveness is. There is an uncrossable abyss between judging others and self examination. There is huge divide between their need to condemn and the story of the stoning of the adulteress. And the inconsistencies bear fruit as ignorance and hypocrisy.

And now there is this thread.
I am particularly sad that Orthodox Catholic, Alex, feels the need to leave the Forum. As a relatively new member, I always looked forward to Alex's take on each and every topic. For me, he is a wealth of knowledge about Church history, doctrine, and the particulars of the Byzantine Rite. Alex, having bared a personal wound about his family as related to this war, also deserves my respect, admiration and prayers. And, I know his family is not alone in their suffering, there are many, many other familes, and may God grant them peace.