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Charles,

Sorry, wrong Charles from Knoxville.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Administrator,

I've always believed your position on this matter is the most correct one that can be - and not only because our old parish priest agreed with you!

Your position reflects the best possible view of "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" with respect to our liturgical tradition which should be ONE with that of our Mother Orthodox Churches.

As Fr. Bohdan Lypsky said (and I can substantiate this, if you don't believe me), when "one goes into an EC church, one shouldn't be able to tell whether one is in an Orthodox Church or EC Church until one hears the commemorations of the bishops . . ."

We are not, after all, called to form a separate ritual culture that is distinct from our Mother Orthodox Churches.

Alex

I actually agree with the Admin for once...scary

I also am praying that the hierarchs reject the revised order ASAP and be done it.

I don't think it has too much of a chance in the Eparchy of Parma even if the Archeparchy did accept it.

No Orthodox church is actively contemplating the changes currently being proposed in the revised order of the Divine Liturgy. Some general aspects may be similar such as abbreviated antiphons, but like in the Antiochian approach, even that is different than what is being proposed.

Certainly no Orthodox church would take the Liturgy and put it in the hands of a "liturgical commission" for a larger, wholesale revision away from the received tradition as we have in the Ordo.

We are supposed to be in the midst of implementing the maxims of Vatican II and Orientale Lumen, and in many places just getting comfortable with a certain level of restoration of some bygone traditions and actually trying to follow the Ordo Celebrationis. Now we have to get used to another form of the Liturgy?

In our parish we have gotten everyone used to opening and closing of the doors, etc. compliant with the Ordo in the last few years. Is outrage to consider anything else.

While some of the changes may be outwardly similar [antiphonal abbreviations, specifically] when one takes a deeper look at parallels in Orthodox usage even these are quite different from the proposed revised order of Liturgy.

So the Ordo, a gem of Greek Catholic liturgical research and work [thank you Vladyka Andrei Sheptytsky ], in this case becomes relegated only to a museum piece along with the hard work and struggles to implement it against a constant onslaught of latinizers. They are still alive, but apparently in a different incarnation.

I apologize for the digression from the topic of the New Skete books. I find myself quite in agreement with Fr. Thomas on this issue. Experimentation, especially with the Divine Praises, is generally not the Byzantine way.

Please dicuss the revised liturgy here:
https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002471&p=4

And reserve this thread for discussion of New Skete's Divine Office.

Dear Deacon Lance,

I am curious which latinizations you refer to above.

Tony

Tony,

I was refering to ACROD, priests still wearing latin monsignor wear, First Holy Communions, etc. Although we still have not shed all these either.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon Lance,

Here goes the 1988 Vespers for Saturday night, I will post Matins later.

Wisdom! Stand aright!
Behold Christ, the light of the universe!
"Radiant light of the holy glory..." Phos Hilaron
Let us pray to the Lord
one prayer of light, then
Come let us worship... X3
Psalm 104(103) with triple Alleluia, etc, as usual
Let us pray to the Lord!
Prayer
1st Antiphon of 1st Kathisma "Makarios Aner"
Let us pray to the Lord!
prayer
"The incense Psalms" (140, etc) with incensation
stichera are inserted as usual, apparently no more than 5
Let us pray to the Lord!
Prayer
Peace be to all! And to your spirit!
Wisdom! Let us attend!
Prokimenon with verses
Wisdom! (anounces reading) Let us attend! (reading)
Peace to you!
Count us worthy... "Kataxioson"
Aposticha
Canticle of Simeon
Trisagion prayers
Troparia
Then the "Office of the Myrrh-Bearers"
The Polyeleos
Psalm 116(114-115)
Psalm 118((117)
Psalm 136(135)
for prelenten Sundays Psalm 137(136) is taken
Let us pray to the Lord!
prayer
Evlogitaria
Let everything that breathes...
Let us pray to the Lord!
prayer
Gospel with usual dialogue
The canticle of Moses
"Having beheld the resurrection..."
Synapte and aitisis
prayer
prayer of inclination with dialogue
dismissal

Now, lest you think I copied the Vigil, I didn't. This is Saturday Vespers. Matins is listed separately. Obviously there are many elements of matins that have been incorporated.

I did not copy the texts of the prayers but some of them differ somewhat in content from the received texts, it would take a more careful examination than what I am doing here.

I suggest you examine the revised orders yourself and if possible visit New Skete to see it as there is more to it than just the text.

Tomorrow I will try to post the Sunday morning matins.

Tony

Dear Deacon Lance,

With all due respect, ACROD came from the Ruthenian Catholic Church 66 years ago. For the purposes of this discussion do you really think that comparing the ACROD to the BCC is useful?

Tony

Tony,

Many thanks. It would appear they have followed Archimandrite Taft's recommendations from his critique of their 1976 edition in OCP 48 (1982) pages 336-370 The Byzantine Office in the Prayerbook of New Skete.

Another question. Is not the combining of the Great Vespers and the Office of the Myrhh-bearers minus New Skete changes/peculiarities what has been authorized to be used in OCA parshes? Or is the New Vigil something different?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Tony,

In fact I think they prove my point: the Orthodox aren't all that concerned with how Byzantine Catholics celebrate the Liturgy. They were willing to tolerate a highly Latinized ACROD for 66 years and would tolerate them 1000 more probably. I think you would agree, the Orthodox are more concerned with what we believe.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon Lance,

What has been authorized is what is contained in the books that are printed with the blessing of a hierarch. Two different seminary liturgical theology professors, one BC one Orthodox, have said in class "everybody cuts matins, they just cut it differently."

It seems that some years ago an abbreviated Vigil was suggested. It was all of the standard great Vespers plus a reduced Matins service. AFAIK this was never acted upon. Services are sometimes silghty abbreviated for pastoral reasons, that is no secret.

What do you mean "New Vigil" and what "has been authorized to be used in OCA parshes"?

Tony

Deacon Lance,

Hmmm...well, I wont dismiss liturgical integrity as being unimportant. Belief is always more important than ritual/liturgical integrity but certainly they influence each other if the "lex orandi, lex credendi" notion holds.

Fr. Thomas notes that an Orthodox priest was suspended for serving New Skete style vespers. That means that ritual integrity (a form of obedience) is important. The first sin was disobedience.

Tony

If you are referring to the so-called "Cathedral Vigil" which has been making it's way around in samizdat form, then yes, it seems to be similar or much the same. It originated, I believe, with Professor Meyendorff (not the departed Fr. John) at St. Vladimir's Seminary, although I think the form came from New Skete, and the scholarship from Taft. That's probably the lineage of that particular service.

Again, I think that the issue is a matter of obedience to one's bishop. But unfortunately, every parish priest to one extent or another becomes a little Pope in their own community and does what he wishes, some more than others. Many of them (us?) are trying their best to respond to changing pastoral needs, either by shortening complex services, or giving what they may perceive is the "best" from the traditional Vigil service, and creating a sort-of Mini Vigil. It is as much a pastoral problem as a practical one. Putting together the music (and choir) for a Vigil is daunting if you've not had the service done regularly in your parish.

It is a slippery slope, because then everything is up for "reform." Although I do not use such a form of Vigil, holding out for either a traditional Vigil done properly or a Sunday morning Matins (we have a fairly well attended Vespers every Saturday night - between 25 and 35 people) I do understand the temptation to change such things.

In short, just because you see it done in a particular OCA parish, does not mean that it is officially approved. Sad, but true.

Priest Thomas

Tony,

I thought some standardized Great Vespers/Vigil/reduced Matins service had been issued from the OCA for use in parishes.

Fr. Deacon Lance

This article may be relevant to the topic. I would say it articulates the views of Professor Meyendorff and of those who are calling for "reform," but it should not be assumed that this is the official position of the OCA.

The Liturgical Path of Orthodoxy in America [svots.edu]