www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Why are the Ukrainians allowing altar girls?

Why do the Ukrainians innovate and latinize so much? Hopefully this practice will stop.
Ukrainian altar girls [https]

The link you posted doesn't work.
Are you referring to this Twitter post [twitter.com]?

To paraphrase St John of Damascus, "just because one sparrow has sung does not mean that spring is here"

We do have liberal parishes - not many, but they are around. Altar girls are NOT a Latinization. It is only something that the current NO Catholic Church may be allowing and there are those EC parishes who follow suit. Perhaps that is part of a definite Latin mentality i.e. we need to do everything the Latins do to be fully Catholic etc. I don't know

Did the local bishop allow this or was it an innovation brought in by the parish priest.

In Toronto, we have a parish - very modern to a fault - that implemented the liturgical recommendations of the Orthodox Church in Finland under Archbishop Paul, namely, censing all the icons in the church and not only those on the iconostasis, the Kiss of Peace before the recitation of the Creed and a number of others. The Finnish Orthodox Church came to the conclusion that such practices properly belong to the Eastern Byzantine patrimony and our parish, on its own, decided to implement them. Is that the opposite of Latinization? A kind of "Byzantinization?" I'm asking, not telling.

In my parish, we have women choir singers and at one time there were a few people who were scandalized by this . . .

I was a sponsor for an Anglican fellow who was joining the Ordinariate but when he saw an altar girl, he turned around and walked out of the church.

Now was any of that necessary? My grandmother, Presbytera Irena, acted as reader for my grandfather when it was needed, and I know other Presbyteras who do the same. Is that a Latinization or a modernization, or a liberalization? take your pick. I have come from a family of strong and religiously faithful women. Presbytera Irena gave me a brilliant example of a devout life - to the point of being ridiculed by other members of my lovely family. That taught me to never be afraid to show outward piety at any time. I was even named after her mother, Presbytera Alexandra, who dedicated herself to a life of prayer and poverty (she distributed her meager pension after her priest-husband died to her several grandchildren). I have cousins here who are married to priests as well.

My question is what is behind this paranoia against seeing women close to the altar? What unnerves men about that?

Sorry my link didn't work, but the one griego catholic did will send you to the original post.

It appears the Ukrainian Metropolitan was there, which makes it more concerning.

Men need camaraderie and a sense of mission and battle. Once women get involved in what have been traditionally male roles, the men lose interest. I've seen it happen in the military, I've seen it happen in Roman parishes. Certain roles thrive when there is a brotherhood. It just looks so out of place and smacks of caving to the times. The only woman who should be at the altar is the Theotokos.

Ever hear of the frog in the kettle story. First it is popes, then your bishops play second fiddle to the Dicastery for the Eastern Churches, then rosaries. Next it will be women deacons and tacky songs from the seventies. It's a slippery slope, I tell you. Watch out.

I ask out of my ignorance: is there a Canon or Canons in Orthodoxy or in the Catholic Church that prohibits girls from serving as altar servers? If so, which and where might I find it/them?

I've heard tell that in the ancient church women were able to serve as deacons, most especially in connection with the baptism of other women. Are there Canons prohibiting this now, or is it "just" custom or tradition that they are no longer able to serve as such?

Back in the 1990's, I attended a Divine Liturgy celebrated by the bishop of a Ukrainian Catholic eparchy in which an altar girl was serving.
Since then, you can find altar girls serving in other Eastern Catholic and, yes, in some Orthodox parishes, espcially in the Armenian Churches.
Just last month, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America came closer to approving officially female altar servers and readers: link [orthochristian.com].

Christ is in our midst!!


I've read all kinds of articles about women "deacons," properly deaconesses. The most conservative refer to the deaconess as parallel to the subdeacon. The role was to keep order in the separate women's sections of the church when it was thought that a woman was somehow a distraction to a man when he prayed. The deaconess plunged the female child into the font for Baptism so that priest did not have to touch said child. A deaconess could be ordained to that order at twenty-five if she were in a monastic community and at age forty if she were a widow without children. There is a lot of conflicting material about where the deaconess was ordained--some say at the altar table; some say at the bishop's throne outside the altar.

The only thing I have found to be consistent is that most claim there were never any deaconesses in the Latin Church.

I wonder about the place of deaconesses in the Liturgy historically because that would involve having them moving in and out of the altar area behind the iconostasis. The reason I mention that is that I have witnessed Orthodox priests telling women that if they enter the altar they will "perish in everlasting fire." And I have been told by pious Orthodox women the same thing. The reference was to St. John Chrysostom, but I cannot verify that with a reference.

On the same note, I remember being told by religious women in my Latin parish--pre-Vatican 2--that they were not permitted to enter the sanctuary when a religious service of any kind was taking place, whether the Liturgy itself or anything else. If a priest were vested and performing any function, no women were allowed. So there must be some very ancient practice here. Whether it is still needed or warranted, is, to me, an open question.

My own opinion is that it should be resolved by the Apostolic Churches, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, by some kind of common understanding. My thought is that unilateral action by anyone risks permanently impeding a future communion which we all hope and pray for. To me there are enough stumbling blocks without adding to them.

When I was in the Antiochian Orthodox Church (a long, unpleasant story, that one is), the priest behaved almost exactly as you described, Theophan, absolutely and in no uncertain terms forbidding ANY female behind the iconostasis. Where this comes from, I still don't know, hence my question regarding the Canons. Lots of things get said and done (or prohibited), but are they always based on the Canons and Holy Tradition?

And, for what it's worth, I agree with your final paragraph about resolving the matter.

This issue represents a modern dilema for the Eastern Catholic, and Orthodox Churches. At it's core lies questions about the nature of tradition, the origins of tradition, the validity of some traditions and modification of tradition. It is one of those issues that needs to be addressed and, as Theophan urges, by a common examination of Apostolic Churches.

My personal take on the issue is this.

#1. It seems to me that many traditions with respect to feminine roles in the Church were influenced by ancient Judaic practices, both societal and in the Temple. The early Christian Church simply continued much of these gender relationships during their own worship......(I think....perhaps the early Church disregarded them and they were reimposed a century or two later....)

#2. The Gospels, however, seem to paint a picture of our Lord breaking many of the established norms of Judaic custom, including those regarding interaction with women. There are many instances of this in the Gospels. He spoke in public with women and included several in his close- knit group. To be brief, Jesus was very inclusive of women and set a new standard, and a new awareness, of the dignity of women.

#3. The Church eventually evolved into an institution, with creeds and canons of universal belief..........and traditions ( some " holy", some merely imposed). This Institution was totally dominated by male clerics and theologians. Did they purposely exclude or diminish womens' roles? Perhaps..... but perhaps it really did not occur to them that they were inhibiting women. After all, it was a time of " Mans' World, Womans' Place."

#4. Somewhere along the line, the tradition of only males at, or behind, the altar became rule. Perhaps, again, harkening back to ancient taboos and labels about uncleanliness......unfortunate and backward as that seems now.

#5. In the modern world, we have the luxury of being able to see a bigger picture, a much larger context of the Apostolic Faiths. We can investigate their history, influences, relationships with culture and ethnicity. We are no longer an Institution limited by geography and language. We live in a time when the Church can see the pros and cons of developed traditions ( some " holy", some imposed), and make informed decisions as to their validity.....as one Spirtual Entity.

#6.The Church faces this modern challenge..... It must convey the message of the Good News to a world that so needs it. It must also testify, through word and deed, that the message is coming from an Institution ordained by Christ Himself, through His Apostles.

#7. In order to accomplish its task, the Church needs to decide which traditions are born from the teachings of Christ and conscientiously ask.....

Did the Gospels birth this Tradition, or did this tradition somehow become Gospel?

Is the tradition holy or devised?

Is the tradition helping or impeding?

How would Jesus view this tradition?

In this particular case, I think taboos about girl altar servers can disappear without any threat to the Faith. I have more trust in our judgement than to think that this will all of a sudden produce a kettle full of frogs.  If only girl altar servers were our Churches' biggest challange, we could all jump for joy! (no frog pun intended)

And....#8..... I have two wonderful, grown daughters. I want to , always,  look them in the eyes and say I believe in our Lord's teachings about human equality and His respect for, and inclusion of, women.

My little opinion.

Christ is in our midst!!

J Michael,

I had the wife of an Orthodox priest tell me that her husband pressed all the altar coverings for his church himself--setting the ironing board up in their living room. She told me she was not allowed to touch any of them.

So if this is any indication, my point about the Apostolic Churches getting together and discussing this issue of where and how and what a woman may do vis-a-vis liturgical practice is necessary. The Orthodox have let the Anglicans know that there can never be communion between them because of women bishops and priests. The Patriarchate of Alexandria was criticized in the past few years because of a ceremony that was supposed to have made some women deaconesses in sub-Saharan Africa, though the function of these women seems to be only similar to the women religious we have in the Latin Church: catechesis and similar duties, but having an official status.

The problem of our divisions have given everyone the idea that we are all "on our own" to make it up as we go along, not remembering where we have come from and where we really ought to be wanting to go.

Christ is in our midst!!

The only caveat I have to the practice of young girls serving is that it seems that young boys begin to opt out. In my parish, we have had young women serving for a number of years and we have a good group that serves on a rotating schedule. OTOH, we have many young men refusing to train or serve.

When the diocese closed our school, I volunteered to serve to fill in gaps caused by families leaving the parish for a parish that had a school. My intention was to show those remaining that it was a privilege to serve and they ought to consider it. We gained more girls but only three boys.

“Women Assisting at Mass

Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.“

Pope Benedict XIV Encyclical Allatae Sunt-On the Observance of Oriental Rites

This is bad news. Female Altar Servers is a Modernized, Modernist, feminist practice. The secular world is already too feminized, more of the Church’s conforming to the World. It’s bad enough that women do not cover their hair in Church, other than the Russian Orthodox and Traditional Latin Catholic Churches.

I love how in the pictures on twitter the girls are in their barefoot sandals while wearing their vestments