www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Why are the Ukrainians allowing altar girls?

"The United States is a nation of the western world,"
The United States is/was a product of the western Protestant world, not Catholic. It seems church attendance and affiliation are down across all churches, which is not a reassuring sign of equality. Too many of our churches are in the world and of the world with clergy who seem to think their job is to be social workers. The future does not look bright at the moment and I suspect much of it comes down to the fact that we have a crisis of leadership in both church and state.

I am all for upholding eastern practice and tradition. Unfortunately, I have met too many easterners who are eastern in name only. They think like Latins, they want to worship like Latins and for any practical purposes, should go join the Latins. However, I think secularism is a bigger danger than Latinization.

If I remember correctly, the Desert Fathers withdrew from the world and kept it at arms length.

Christ is in our midst!!


I was taught that the Desert Fathers (and Mothers) withdrew from the world as a prophetic witness to "the one thing necessary." It was not an end in itself. The desert was a training ground for sharpening the virtues and deepening the spiritual life, but it was also meant to be yeast for those still living in the world. We need to be salt, light, yeast. Or, as my Cursillo retreat taught us, we need "to bloom where we are planted." If all the Christians left for the desert, how or by whom would the work of evangelization be done?

I was on retreat last February where we were challenged to be evangelizers. The point was also made that we don't have to preach or actively teach. As St. Francis of Assisi pointed out, we need to preach the Gospel by our actions and only use words if necessary. My retreat also made a point that I had heard decades ago but had lost sight of. We are called to be the presence of Christ wherever we go. We are to be His Eyes to seek out, His Ears to listen, His Voice to encourage and to pray, His Hands to work, His Arms to embrace, and his Legs to carry us wherever He needs His Presence to be.

I had always been taught that "when two or three are gathered in His Name" He is in the midst of them. So, whenever I went to church as a child, I always looked around to see if I could see Him, but I always wondered why I didn't. It would take years of study, good spiritual fathers, and growth to realize that the reason I didn't see Him is that He was trying to use the people around me and me to be His Presence to each other. Further, if I didn't see Him both those around me and me were not stepping up to do what we were called to do.

One of my spiritual fathers once said to me that I get into places and situations he could never get into because of the barrier of his collar. I noticed that people shifted their behavior and their speech whenever a member of the clergy was present. So it falls to us to step up. People have come and continue to come to my office or otherwise seek me out. I have said before that they tell me things they would not reveal in confession. I listen; sometimes I speak; other times I stay quiet. One man I sponsored into our parish said he "liked the way you live your life." Whatever he meant by that?

So we can be the same as the Desert Fathers (and Mothers) where we are if we just take the time to be present to people. We don't need to be perfect. We don't need to be hyper devout. We don't need to preach with words.

The question comes down to the examination of conscience I posted some time ago. Am I the first to reconcile with someone who I have been in conflict with? Am I the first to say I am sorry in a mutual dispute? Am I willing to take the side of someone who has no one to take his/her side in a conflict? Do I think of the poor who have trouble in these times feeding their families and send a couple bucks to a food bank or soup kitchen? Do I keep the Master first and foremost in my thoughts and try to act like He would? Am I the kindest person people think of when they think of kindness? When virtues are examined, how far have I progressed in my Christian walk? Do I care for others, their needs, their opinions, and their persons? Am I humble enough to seek out my spiritual father and regularly ask him for his teaching and opinion of my actions and struggles? At the end of my life will He pick me out of a crowd and announce that He knows me well?

At the end of the day, who serves at the Divine Liturgy should be, IMHO, whoever can help do what St. Paul said we ought to do: "let all things be done in good order." My chief concern continues to be that the Apostolic Churches, even though they may not be in communion, ought to work this out among themselves so that unilateral actions by one not be another wall of separation to the Lord's prayer "that they all may be one."

I would definitely agree on the unilateral action. So often when one church does something, it becomes a wall of separation.

The United States is the product of many things and people; many of which have little to do with relligious denominations. Nevertheless, it is still a westen nation because its roots as a Republic and government are largely European in origin and arose from the Deistic (not Protestant) Enlightenment.

You are so fortunate to live in a world (dispite declining numbers) where there are so many Christians. The Church was born in a vastly pagan world where idolatry and moral decadence were rampant; and yet survived, and it took over two centuries for her to be even tolerated. Be not afraid!

Christ calls us all to be "social workers" - "whoever does this, to these, the least of these My brethren..." - so don't be too hard on the clergy who might be showing us the way.

The Latins (Romans, Westerns etc.) are Catholic, too. They brought the Church to this western world that you live in. If you are surprized by the influx of Latinos to the USA, remember that their ancestors, who were evangelized by Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans & others, were present in California and the southwest long before the Delaration of Independence was signed.

If a small group of pious Ukrainians want to kneel down in the pews of their church and recite the Rosary, or process to the Via Crucis; what of it? These are beautiful Catholic devotions, as are the beautiful Akathist Hymns of the East chanted and prayed in the open spaces of onion-domed sanctuaries.

You may not agree, and chances are you will not; but "breathing with both lungs" enriches us all, is more healthy and, most of all, more Catholic!

I would like to add a few more comments of my own here. This thread is very thought provoking, as it addresses a specific issue that has larger implications...

One of the principle messages of the Gospels is that we will be be judged by the same measure we judge others, and we are to treat others as we ourselves wish to be treated. It seems to me, the case for our final judgement is being prepared here and now, in our dealings with other people. Further, if we live that Gospel message, the Kingdom is not only to come, but is now present. 

This principle message is a "social" teaching, there is no other way around it. We are called upon to have compassion toward others as God has compassion for us. The Gospels and the Epistles echo this message over and over, in outright statements and in beautiful parables.

Furthermore, this message far outnumbers any Gospel messages about the nature and practice of worship. Yes, there is institution of the Holy Eucharist and  the presentation about the " Our Father".  However, most of what we now practice as "right worship" was a gradual development from the Apostles till now. The fact remains though, there are far more instructions in the Gospels about societal interaction than there is about worship as we define it. Might one deduce that, just maybe, the most pleasing worship of God, outlined in the Gospels, centers around the way we treat our brothers and sisters? 

To put this into Byzantine expression, Christ is the Image of the Invisible- the living Icon of God.  We, in turn, are called to be living icons of Christ's teachings to eachother.

Now, if there is any truth to these thoughts, the issue of girl altar servers, standing during Liturgy, pews, Rosaries, musical instruments etc., etc., may be seen in a different light.  Generally speaking, these are issues of developed tradition and custom, they are not the kernel of our truth. Now let me turn to tradition.

I am a second generation American. All of my grandparents came from the little area of the Carpathians, where Ukraine, Slovakia and Poland share boundaries. I know  about tradition and customs. I was taught them, I lived them and passed them to my daughters with a sense of duty.

I often compare my perception of this duty to visiting a great art museum. Being an artist and iconographer, the analogy comes naturally. I spend a lot of time in rooms devoted to Byzantine Art, and rooms containing art of the Middle Ages, because these are my scholarly interests. But, I also visit rooms of Renaissance Art, Egyptian Art, Modern Art and other eras. I am always aware how the museum takes care to not mix different art periods in the same rooms...each room is kept historically and culturally pure as possible. However, within each period ( each tradition) there is always an overlap. No Art Period abruptly ends, and no Art period abruptly arises. 

Additionally, the Museum has made me aware that each room, each period, is one facet of the human need of -and gift of-creativity. And I am always reminded- though I am in love with the Byzantine/ Medieval period-  that any one room is not what the museum is really about. There is a greater reason. The whole museum is a monument to human genius, creativity, and diversity.

And so it is with my love for Eastern Christianity. I feel that sense of duty to preserve and pass along what I have been given. I see the need to keep tradition and customs as pure as possible. But, I also realize that there is overlap. 

Most importantly though, I have come to realize that any one tradition is not what the whole of Christianity is really about.

Now, there are people ( and whole Churches)  that refuse to compromise on a tradition and maintain that they, themselves,  only possess "right worship." (And I have met people who believe that only one kind of art is " really art.") Oddly though, I am noticing that people with this stance are also people who use terms like feminism, modernism, Westerism, liberalism, Latinism and any other " isms" that evoke the threat of change. And many of them are not second or third generation Americans, but rather converts to "right worship".  And I can't help but wonder.......does fear of change attract some to  "right  worship"?  Might they be seeking  a tradition that justifies their secular stance against the " isms"?

 To those people, I pose this question and it is it's a tough one-  and please forgive it's bluntness....but .......

Which do you think is more displeasing to God and His Gospel........a Church that breaks tradition with a girl altar server, or a Church that remains silent about, or condones, the destruction of that girl's home and family?

Christ is in our midst!!

Indeed, this is and has been a very thought-provoking one.

I agree it is important to maintain tradition, especially if you are in a minority and risk being engulfed by the larger culture/church. However, it is also important to believe in and support that tradition. We have, in our area, easterners who won't drive across town to the Byzantine parish but instead go to St. Affirming by the Brook and sing "On Eagle's Wings" with the Latins. It's closer, you know. They still claim to be Byzantine which seems intellectually dishonest. Even worse, there are those who attend the Byzantine parish but are believing and practicing Latins for any practical purposes - goats among the sheep, in other words. Do they really believe what eastern Christianity teaches, or do they just lack the personal integrity to leave and go where their heart is? It gets curiouser and curiouser as St. Alice of Wonderland exclaims.

I don't have the answers and each has to answer for himself. But the oddities abound and are noticeable. If one comments or complains the inevitable arguments for "unity" come up. If we abandoned all that we believe, we could have unity up to our necks tomorrow. Unity may not always be a good thing as some of the declining American Protestant churches are discovering. Churches are declining in the U.S. both Catholic and Protestant and the figures are available to back that up. For us Byzantines, there were never that many of us to start with so we can't survive substantial losses. One can only hope and pray for better days ahead.

Well, dear byzan TN, I find myself taking some umbrage over your comments.

Just as a matter of curiosity, do you know for a fact that those "...easterners who won't drive across town to the Byzantine parish but instead go to St. Affirming by the Brook and sing "On Eagle's Wings" with the Latins" do so solely because "It's closer, you know."?? Or might at least some of them have other reasons of which you may not be aware?

Of those attending a Latin parish who "...still claim to be Byzantine...", which in your judgment amounts to intellectual dishonesty, do you have personal knowledge of their private prayer and spiritual lives, their family customs and traditions, etc. on which you base that judgment?

I am one of those Byzantine Catholics who won't "drive across town" to the Byzantine parish because "across town" takes me much further away from my pretty much house-bound, disabled, and chronically ill wife. Were she to have an emergency--and they have happened!--driving back across town (well, actually from town to out in the country) could be disastrous for her. Instead, I attend an extremely reverent N.O. Mass with the local Latins, about 3-5 minutes (as opposed to 45-60 minutes to/from the Byzantine parish, depending on traffic and weather) from my house. It's not what I want. But then, it's not always about me, much as I might like it to be. Does that make me a sheep amongst goats, or a goat amongst sheep, or whatever?

It goes without saying that there are differences, some quite substantial, between eastern and western Christianity. But what's common to them both? They're both Christian!! Amazing, isn't it? Is one *more* Christian than the other? I guess there are some who think so, especially on the internet--maybe even on this board.

Christ is in our midst!!

The last two posts seem to signal the end of this topic. Before we lose sight of the thought-provoking posts previously made, I am closing this thread so that the good that has come out will not be lost in personal exchanges. I am faulting no one.

Bob
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