www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Polish and Ukrainian bishops on same-sex blessings

My sincere and grateful thanks to ajk, Theophan, and Apotheoun for expressing my own sentiments about this subject far better and more eloquently than I would have done. And specifically to ajk for the links you have provided.

Jeff

Christ is Born!!

I've thought further about this document and the reactions both for and against it. I think the problem is the idea that the Catholic Church has been against the LGBTQ individual. Noting could be further from the truth. The Church has always been open to anyone and everyone.

That said, it is also true that we are all--emphasis ALL--brought to Christ by repentance. No one becomes part of Him--of His Mystical Body--by coming in with his pride and sin wrapped around him. We are baptized to remove the stain of our First Parents and then, throughout our pilgrimage, we are called to examine who we are, what we have done, and who we are becoming through the beautiful Mystery of Confession. No one has a "right" to be part of the Mystical Body. We are all invited and we all come with the humility of spirit that admits we are broken, have fallen short in many ways, and are in need of the medicine that the Church has to offer.

We fail to recognize that the Jesus, while on earth, was an Orthodox Jew. Leviticus' condemnations of irregular relationships were a given. There are those who want to argue that Jesus never said anything against the relationships that the Pope seems to say can be blessed. But they fail in their argument by trying to take Him out of the context in which He came. They also fail to remember what God did to Sodom and Gomorra (sp?). The Beatitudes back this up. "Blessed are the pure in spirit"; "Blessed are the pure in heart." We're called to work on that in the framework which our Creator set out--not the framework that our fallen world has resurrected in our contemporary society.

I think where we have lapsed is in jettisoning our ascetic tradition in the Western Church. The fasting and other practices we have abandoned had as their purpose, giving the individual the tools needed to fight the passions--whether regular or irregular. Our Eastern Catholic and Orthodox brethren still maintain these practices and their example is a light for this darkness.

Bob

I found this video helpful.

Archbishop Andrew Nkea of Bamenda on the blessings of homosexuals. [youtube.com]

Contrast Pope Francis and his minions on blessing "couples."
Fiducia Supplicans [press.vatican.va]

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Apotheon,

Wow. Where did you find this powerful video? I have to say that I, too, found this video by an Anglican convert to not only be helpful, but also a call to stand firm in the Faith.

Bob

I was an Episcopalian (Anglo-Catholic) before my conversion to Catholicism in the late 1980s, and I have continued to have an interest in the Anglican communion even after becoming Catholic.

That said, Dr. Ashenden has always been a very thoughtful person, and he was of course at one time the chaplain for Queen Elizabeth prior to his conversion. I posted his most recent video here because I felt that he expressed clearly what is wrong with the recent Vatican document; while firmly stating the need to remain faithful to the truth of Christ regardless of the errors of those in positions of authority in the Church.

Two interesting podcast videos (i.e., from "The Catholic Thing") that touch upon the spurious document "Fiducia Supplicans," and a few other recent issues going on at the Vatican and in the Church in general.





The word "innovation" was brought up in the first video, and it is important to remember that in the ancient Church that term was just another word for heresy.

Christ is Born!!

In October I was sent a book that describes the current situation in the Catholic Church and how to respond. I know that this is not the Book section, but post it here because of its relevance to the current discussion.

I can say that if my bishop had been Patriarch Nestorius, or Patriarch Dioscorus, or Pope Honorius, or Patriarch Pyrrhus, et al., I would have had no qualms in rejecting the teaching espoused by them, and in resisting them in any way that I, as a layman, could. We are bound to hold fast to the truth of Christ even if parts of the Church's hierarchy have rejected that truth.

Christ is Born!!

It's been interesting to me the attacks that Pope Francis has made on conservative Catholics. Years ago--and I mean MANY years ago--I was in a conversation with my spiritual father about the fact people had criticized me for being "so conservative." His reply was that "a person can never be too conservative when it comes to the Faith." I have kept that in mind. My next spiritual father--after the aforementioned died--told me that the ancient practice of challenging the innovator to show and prove where his innovation was consistent with the Faith once delivered to the Apostles. I've kept that in mind, too.

I must tell all of you that I am grateful for each of you and the support you have demonstrated on this thread and on this board over the years. At times it can seem that one is isolated. It makes me wonder if there is something wrong with me when I am challenged in defending the Church's traditional teaching.

Thanks, God bless, and Happy New Year.

Bob

When things are going in a bad direction in the Church, as often seems to be the case these days, I am reminded of the advice given by St. Augustine to the newly baptized catechumens of Hippo Regius:

"Therefore, because you have been made members of Christ I must warn you; for I fear dangers for you, and not alone from those who are pagans, not alone from the Jews, and not so much from the heretics as from bad Catholics. Choose from among the people of God (the Christians) those you would imitate. For if you wish to imitate the multitude, you shall then not be among the few who shall enter in by the narrow way." [M. F. Toal (Editor), The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, Volume 2, page 225]

Christ is born!!

I thought about the implications of "Bad Catholics" after reading the last post. What does one do when a family member decides to marry outside the Church--in a civil ceremony or in a non-Catholic church--and one is pressured by other family members to attend--or worse be a witness or other wise participate?

I was put in this position and my penance once I confessed was rather harsh.

Thephan said,
"I thought about the implications of "Bad Catholics" after reading the last post. What does one do when a family member decides to marry outside the Church--in a civil ceremony or in a non-Catholic church--and one is pressured by other family members to attend--or worse be a witness or other wise participate?

I was put in this position and my penance once I confessed was rather harsh."

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Well Theophan, now we are getting to the heart of the issue, at least for me. The whole situation is no longer a doctrinal discussion. It is now about people, feelings and conscience, entering a scary grayness. 

Everything seems cut and dry when the well defined rule or doctrine states you are not allowed to participate in the wedding service. However, the rule seems at odds with one's conscience when it involves another's feelings, especially someone close.  It also seems at odds with the Gospel concepts of understanding, love and being non- judgemental. 

I knew a man, a close friend actually, that was older and has since passed away. He had four daughters and one son. He was Roman Catholic, and obeyed the rules of the Church his whole life. Only the son and one daughter married within the Catholic Church. These two Catholic weddings he attended and celebrated. The other three daughters' weddings, he did not attend. He did not celebrate them. He did not " give away" these daughters at the non- Catholic altars. He did not revel and participate in the merry making. His wife attended without him. He held, without wavering, to the Catholic doctrine. I have no idea if he had any second thoughts about his decisions before he died, he never spoke of it. I hope he died still feeling justified by his staunch beliefs.

The bottom line is, the man in question was being a "good Catholic" I suppose..... He followed the rules. However, is that the entire definition of a good Catholic, the follower of a well defined doctrine? Where do the human factors come in? Is belief superior to our deeds? .....even when it allows hurt?

I am glad that you posted this latest thought Theophan. It really gets to the heart of what I have been trying to express all along. And that is...the way we treat others, our concern for their well being and mercy toward them, is way more important than blind allegiance to letter of the law. Is this so heretical of a thought?

The old man I knew was not a " bad Catholic", but during the weddings of his three daughters, I often wondered..........did he act as a "bad Christian". Did he put doctrine before Gospel?

Happy New Year to everyone.

Alex, my New Year wishes and prayers for your recovery and health....

Christ is Born!!

Hutsul,

I guess the issue involves the fact that not everyone in church or family is at the same level of intensity in their faith commitment. And that makes for some very tense family dynamics. I think it relates to a description of the way the Russian Orthodox Church was purified by the persecution of the Bolsheviks. It was back to the First Century. Those who were willing to put their lives on the line for Christ stayed--a much smaller number than when it was custom to pack the churches on a regular basis. I think we find that in families.

I have told clergy that we need--IMHO--a better catechesis for our young people when they are beginning to think about dating and eventually choosing a spouse. Many never think of their faith or how it will be lived out with someone whose value system is found to be radically different, though much of that is glossed over during courtships. It can often mean the loss of faith for a Christian when he/she finds that living with a nonbeliever or much weaker believer challenges the regular practice of the Faith.

St. John Chrysostom is quoted as saying, "Thousands and thousands of people crowd the churches. Of those thousands, only a few hundred understand what it is all about. Of those few hundred, only a handful take that knowledge and attain their salvation." (BTW, this is one of those tough sayings I wrestle with on a regular basis.)

The discussion is most certainly doctrinal in nature.

Here is an excellent article by Fr. Thomas Weinandy in which he makes it clear that the things set forth in "Fiducia Supplicans" is not magisterial teaching:

God's Blessings and Magisterial Teaching [thecatholicthing.org]