|
0 members (),
1,781
guests, and
94
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,508
Posts417,509
Members6,159
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 776 Likes: 24
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 776 Likes: 24 |
Christ is Born!!
We can only hope that the Lord will intervene to save His Bride from destruction at the hands of Pope Francis and the liberals with whom he has surrounded himself. Amen, amen, amen! I find that an awful and destructive thing to say and affirm with "Amens" about the person of this good and saintly pope. I'm done with this Forum; and pleas don't privately address me. In any case, the "Gates of Hell" will not prevail, so not to worry.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 468 Likes: 13
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 468 Likes: 13 |
Seeing as what Pope Francis did to Bishop Strickland, one wonders how far he will allow to go this rebellion against what he has written before the cookies start to hit the fan?
And those who, like Cardinal Fernández, defend this, are amazing in how they can twist words, meanings, and generally obfuscate what has been said.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 468 Likes: 13
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 468 Likes: 13 |
I am still in shock about this I'm not shocked about this. Not shocked by "Fiducia Supplicans", or not shocked by the reaction of the many more traditional and orthodox prelates in opposition to it? Personally, neither shocks me, and I think Abp. Shevchuk's response was wonderful and right on point. I've yet to see any response from our Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) bishops, but perhaps I've not looked in the right place(s). You mean the Ruthenian bishops (thank GOD! I left that mess!) who authorized the "Teal Terror" and changed the wording of the Creed? THOSE bishops??? I would be shocked if they made any protest against this at all!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,334 Likes: 96
Moderator Member
|
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,334 Likes: 96 |
Christ is Born!!
Maybe this topic was too controversial to post. When members have polarizing opinions, it does not work to promote the Christian charity for which this forum has been known. There have certainly been many statements made by many individuals, both clergy and lay, both inside and outside the Catholic Church in response to the recent papal instruction concerning this topic. The more made, the more polarized we seem to become.
I am asking forgiveness of the members of the board for my statements that may have offended any of you.
Bob
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
What I find to be destructive are documents issued by the highest authorities in the Church that accommodate the Christian teaching to modern immoral sensibilities by being doctrinally vague and open to abuse in praxis. Any actions that can be taken in an equivocal sense, and which could in any way give the impression of "blessing" sin must be avoided. The Church in the West is a desiccated husk of its former self, and I can only hope that a leader from a part of the world (perhaps Africa) that has rejected the modern Western approach will be chosen to bring about a great moral and doctrinal reformation at some point in the future.
That's just my humble opinion of course.
|
|
2 members like this:
orthodoxsinner2, J Michael |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,334 Likes: 96
Moderator Member
|
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,334 Likes: 96 |
Christ is Born!! What I find to be destructive are documents issued by the highest authorities in the Church that accommodate the Christian teaching to modern immoral sensibilities by being doctrinally vague and open to abuse in praxis. Any actions that can be taken in an equivocal sense, and which could in any way give the impression of "blessing" sin must be avoided. Apotheoun, I could not agree more. And I thank you for stating so succinctly what I have been thinking since the beginning of this pontificate. Bob
|
|
1 member likes this:
J Michael |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520 Likes: 10
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520 Likes: 10 |
You mean the Ruthenian bishops (thank GOD! I left that mess!) who authorized the "Teal Terror" and changed the wording of the Creed? THOSE bishops???
I would be shocked if they made any protest against this at all! Well, get ready to be shocked because Eparch Kurt Burnette of the Eparchy of Passaic has issued his reflection and guidelines on Fiducia supplicans: link. [ reddit.com] In short, FS does NOT apply.
|
|
1 member likes this:
J Michael |
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,392 Likes: 32
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,392 Likes: 32 |
Communication 27th December 2023, Wednesday 09:00 We celebrated at Christmas the joy that God is with us, is among us and He has invited all people with merciful love to the communion with Him. In this spirit, we, the members of the Hungarian Catholic Bishops’ Conference, address the following message to the ordained ministers and members of our local Church. The declaration Fiducia supplicans on the Pastoral Meaning of Blessings, issued by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith on 18 December 2023, does not change the Catholic Church’s belief and perennial teaching on marriage and sexual morality. Considering the pastoral situation in our country, the Bishops’ Conference specifies that the ordained ministers can bless all people individually, regardless of their gender identity and sexual orientation, but they should always avoid common blessing for couples who live together in a non-marital partnership or in a marriage that is not valid in the Church, or who live in a same-sex partnership. At the same time, we accompany our brothers and sisters living in special life situations with love and respect, helping them to gain a deeper understanding of God’s will by living according to the Gospel of Christ. Budapest, 27 December 2023 the Hungarian Catholic Bishops’ Conference Hungarian Catholic Bishops’ Conference [ catholicvote.org]
|
|
1 member likes this:
J Michael |
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,392 Likes: 32
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,392 Likes: 32 |
Over the past decade ambiguity on certain matters of Catholic doctrine and practice has become a pattern for the current pontificate. -- Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap., Archbishop emeritus of Philadelphia. The Cost of “Making a Mess” [ firstthings.com] Around 2 years ago on this forum I referred to "Pope Francis (the Ambiguous)." I think it's time to remove the parentheses.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 123 Likes: 21
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 123 Likes: 21 |
Theophan, you are not alone in having second thoughts about posting opinions that seemed offensive. I, myself, have second thoughts about coming on too strong in some of my comments about this topic in other threads. This is one of those really charged-up issues, and it is difficult to treat charged-up issues with objective restraint. I guess we need to remember we are all on the same team and we all want what is best for the future of our Church. At any rate, I am also sorry if I offended anyone, and I will try to understand those with strong, but, differing opinions.
Having said that, may I chime in with a little comment on Ambiguity......
"Anything that is doctrinally vague is open to abuse in praxis"........ yes, but it is also open to the most beautiful of actions, the most profound of outcomes.....because it is open. The Gospels of our Lord are filled with challenges to the rigidity of doctrine. The doctrine of rest on the Sabbath, for instance, is often challenged by Jesus, right in front of the Pharisees. Rather than impose the letter of the Law, Jesus challenges the Pharisees to consider exceptions and ambiguities. Does this mean He is condoning the sin of working on the Sabbath? Or, rather, is He opening a door for love and compassion to enter? Is He abolishing the Law or leading those present to a greater understanding of it? When Jesus asserts, 'man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man', what did He mean? Is not the challange of vagueness an invitation to think and act out of free will and discover the Spirit of the Law? Or is it better to conform to a doctrine because that doctrine is beyond interpretation.........even more important than those for whom it was intended?
The Gospel sermons and parables are not narrow and bounded. They are open- ended stories designed to make us confront our conscience. We are called to participate in their teachings. They are purposely vague, ambiguous and meant to be guide rails to lead us to love, faith, empathy, and even wisdom. They are affirmations that God believes his creation will make the choices they need, and those choices will not be made out of fear of non- compliance, but out of love.
Can we not consider that the Pope's approach may follow this kind of precedent, this way of teaching? Must we jump to the conclusion that he is a radical, trying to tear down everything we were taught? That he is a danger? That the Church will be destroyed because of the definition of a blessing?
Must we demand rules, so opaque with definition, that they allow no chance for the Spirit in them to shine through?
Ambiguity is inherent, and a necessary quality for some things- it's not always to be feared. It allows a chance for things deeply human to enter the situation. This is how I look at it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
I wouldn't call anything related to same-sex activity "beautiful." Blessing individuals who are struggling with sin, but who are making attempts at moral reformation is one thing, for that can be a great gift. But the blessing of "couples" in relationships where the actions involved are morally reprehensible, and which involves either direct or tacit approval of grave sin, is something else altogether.
Christ's actions with the woman caught in adultery in the Gospel of John illustrate how the Church should act in such situations: "Jesus looked up and said to her, 'Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?' She said, 'No one, Lord.' And Jesus said, 'Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.'"
Ambiguity, which may give the impression of the approval, or worse yet, of the blessing of sin, is a lie; and God is not the author of lies or of confusion.
Finally, I am reminded of a pontificate of long ago, where the pope was ambiguous, and in his ambiguity he gave aid and comfort to those opposed to Christ, and we all know what happened to him, for he was condemned as a heretic by an ecumenical council, and even his successor, Pope Leo II, condemned him by name:
"We anathematize the inventors of the new error, that is, Theodore, Bishop of Pharan, Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter, betrayers rather than leaders of the Church of Constantinople, and also Honorius, who did not attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the teaching of apostolic tradition, but by profane treachery permitted its purity to be polluted."
|
|
1 member likes this:
J Michael |
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,392 Likes: 32
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,392 Likes: 32 |
Ambiguity is inherent, and a necessary quality for some things- it's not always to be feared. It allows a chance for things deeply human to enter the situation. This is how I look at it. One of the standards the Church uses to measure the quality of her leaders is a simple line from Scripture: “God is not the author of confusion but of peace” (1 Cor. 14:33). So it was for Paul. So it is now. So it is for local pastors and bishops, including the bishop of Rome. Confusion among the faithful can often be a matter of innocent individuals who hear but fail to understand the Word. Confused teaching, however, is another matter. It’s never excusable.
...
Over the past decade ambiguity on certain matters of Catholic doctrine and practice has become a pattern for the current pontificate.
... -- Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap., Archbishop emeritus of Philadelphia. The Cost of “Making a Mess” [ firstthings.com]
|
|
2 members like this:
Apotheoun, J Michael |
|
|
|
|
