www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Latin Catholic Interested in Byzantine Catholicism

Hi everyone! Just a brief introduction. I'm a lifelong Roman Catholic who attends the TLM, but I've always been intrigued by Eastern Christianity. For some reason it seems more organic, or natural, or simple, but in an immensely profound way; I hope that makes sense without sounding insulting. I love the Latin Rite as well, but at times it seems overly structured, or added to. Just look at the Rosary for instance, a prayer that started out by simply saying Hail Mary's on beads but now has prayers upon prayers heaped onto it. I'm the rare Latin Catholic who doesn't like the Rosary, but I don't tell people because that's one of the greatest sins a Catholic can commit (figuratively speaking, but that's how many view it practically speaking). So the Byzantine method of prayer, especially the Jesus Prayer, is appealing. I recently read Lawrence Cross's Eastern Christianity the Byzantine Tradition, liked what I saw, so I'm here to learn more. I haven't been to a Divine Liturgy yet, there's none available near by, but Holy Resurrection monastery in St. Nazianz, WI is a manageable distance for the occasional trip, as is Holy Protection monastery in Eagle Harbor, MI. If anyone would be so kind as to suggest some other books to read I'd be grateful. I'll even suggest one for the users here: Monastery and High Cross by Connie Marshner. It discusses the archaelogical evidence that Eastern monks were in Ireland before Saint Patrick.

Welcome to the forum! I am intrigued b the name; do you perform as a historical reenacted drummer boy, or is it more contemporary?

I believe that Holy Resurrection allows for pilgrims to stay on the grounds? Might be worth an overnight trip, no? https://hrmonline.org/visit

There's not much to my username actually: it's the one I use on another Catholic forum, since I played drums in college. Although I have thought it'd be neat to play drums in a reenactor group if there was one local.

And yes, Holy Resurrection monastery does offer hospitality to pilgrims. I have a retreat scheduled there later this year.

Drummerboy, I'm a Catholic convert who transferred Rites and became Byzantine. Welcome to an interesting rollercoaster ride. I sympathize with a lot of what you're expressing and know the feeling well. If you're looking for more general recommendations, I'd encourage you to attend several Divine Liturgies. What I mean by that is not several different Liturgies(e.g. Melkite, Ruthenian, Ukrainian), but multiple visits to one and develop some familiarity with it; different parishes and traditions may do some things slightly differently even though it is, on paper, the same Liturgy. Also, don't get caught up in the pew book. Keep your head up and observe, especially on your first visit. Byzantine parishes and communities are generally small, so you'll stick out like a sore thumb just by being a newcomer and that's OK. You don't need to be preoccupied by "blending in" or getting all of the gestures and bows, etc. correct. During my journey, I found that parishioners were all VERY friendly and welcoming. I had people open pew books and show me where we were in the Liturgy and what was going on in the pews and helping me in real time because they were excited to share their Tradition with me.

Also, I'd say that you're at a slight advantage being familiar with the Latin Mass. It's different than the Divine Liturgy, but they're more similar than a lot of people think. Early on in my search I found this:

https://coelifluus.wordpress.com/byzantine-rite/comparison-of-roman-and-byzantine-mass/

and it helped me get more comfortable with the Liturgy. Also, if you're looking to familiarize yourself with the Liturgy and its structure, I found it helpful to open my Latin Missal side-by-side with a Liturgikon.

Can you please tell me some good books to learn more about Eastern Christianity, especially for someone coming from a Roman Catholic background?

What are some other good books for learning about Eastern Christianity, especially for someone transitioning from a Roman Catholic background?

I'm also a Roman Catholic who has attended the TLM for many years, and I share many of these thoughts. In fact, I've thought about this topic quite a bit and have often struggled to put these ideas into words, as you have. I've heard many people say they are attracted to the Byzantine Rite because of the sheer liturgical beauty or symbolic significance of the liturgy. Fair enough. But for me, I feel as if it's not just a difference in degree. The traditional Roman Rite has many beautiful features and significant gestures. It's more a difference in kind because there are certain mysteries emphasized in the East that are not emphasized in the West.

I might be able to recommend some books. Are there particular topics that you're interested in? Liturgy, history, spiritual life, etc?

Christ is in our midst!!

EMagnus,

Welcome to the forum. We hope your time here is spiritually enriching.

I am a Latin Catholic who spent a number of my early years in the Russian tradition in the OCA. There are many reasons why I am back to being Latin Catholic, but that is for another day. I have retained my Byzantine prayer life and practice because it "speaks" to me. The prayers I learned over 50 years ago come to me easily and have come to express who I am and what I believe.

There is a book I recently came across entitled "The Springtime That Never Came," by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, Auxiliary Bishop of Astana in Kazakhstan. You may find it at Sophia Press. It might give you some insight into what you are feeling. His Excellency outlines the severe break that the Latin Church experienced following Vatican 2 in liturgy, practice, and teaching.

I am also working my way through two books I listed on the "Books" section. You might like them, too.

Bob
Moderator

Thank you! I have several of His Excellency's books, but I had not heard of that one. I will take a look.

I should say at the outset that I do not mean to criticize any particular priest or about the Latin Tradition as a whole. I have some spiritual fathers there to whom I owe a great debt, and I respect everyone in the Latin Church who is trying as best they can to recover their heritage.

So far, Hieromonk Gabriel Bunge has come the closest to describing what I'm feeling in "Earthen Vessels." It's a sort of disconnection of the liturgy, practice, and teaching from the interior disposition of holiness. The question I want to answer is how to become holy, and often, the answer given is to attend reverent Masses, say many Rosaries, and read good spiritual books. If I'm not making progress, it's often assumed I'm not "doing" enough in my spiritual life. I'm often overwhelmed by the "doing," and I also think holiness involves something more than those practices alone.

Christ is in our midst!!

The book I mentioned is still available on Amazon.

Christ is in our midst!!


The misconception is we "do" something. By our attempt to "do" something we fall into the trap of the people who tried to build the Tower of Babble. God does the "doing." We need to be open to His Grace, be open to the Holy Spirit, and--most of all--to be humble, living in patient endurance. He gives His gifts as He chooses, as His time happens, and as He knows we are ready.

We need--most of all--to stop thinking that the spiritual life is something that comes about on our schedule. It does not. I remember a story from the Desert Fathers about a man who thought he wanted to be a man of prayer. So the abbot set him up in a cell, gave him a book to read, and left. Soon he became hungry and wondered why no one had called him to eat. When he went to ask if the fathers were eating that day, he was told they were, but they didn't think to call him because he was a man of prayer. The fathers, it was explained to him, worked as well as prayed so they had need of nourishment, but a man of prayer didn't seem to need it.

We progress in the spiritual life by slow, patient striving and with the help and guidance of a seasoned spiritual father. As St. Gregory of Nyssa teaches, the spiritual life is a movement from glory to glory--the title of his book on the subject. Sometimes we make a step forward, sometimes back. It is a struggle.

As for the things you mention--Masses, rosaries, and other works, St. Seraphim of Sarov has the best advice I have ever heard or read. He says that "prayer, fasting, almsgiving, vigils and other works performed are NOT the aim of our Christian life; they are the means of attaining it. The aim of the Christian life is THE ACQUISITION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD."

And what does this acquisition look like?

Are you the most kind person in the group? Are you first to make peace when in an argument with another? Are you always ready to set another person's needs above your own? Do you provide for your family? Do you regularly set aside a portion for the poor? Do you honor God by your speech, your actions, and your witness? Do you edify those around you by how you live your life? Do people say they can see Christ is you? (BTW, that's why we are baptized--to be His Presence wherever we go.)

There will be times when it seems like no "progress" is made. That's when we are being tested to check our resolve. St. Epraim the Syrian tells us that "God requires of us only our consumate determination. It is He that gives us strength and victory."

And if you are wondering how I came by all this, it is because of His grace leading me to so many holy sources and solid, orthodox spiritual fathers over the course of the last 62 years--since my confirmation at 12.

Bob

I appreciate that thought a lot. Thank you for sharing.

I can find these thoughts in some places in the West. But like the OP, I feel like a lot of the wisdom from the Desert Fathers has been buried or pushed aside for the writings of more recent spiritual guides. But I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to build a spiritual life without understanding the wisdom from those who went there first.

Christ is in our midst!!

When I needed spiritual support, I was struggling with the aftermath of Vatican 2. There were a lot of ideas swirling around that were labeled "the spirit of Vatican 2" that turned out as the years went by to be opinions that the Church did not intend. Lots of irreverent things going on surrounding the liturgy--too many to list. I needed, at that time, to grow in my spiritual life and was told that all the things--all the supports I had had--were "Old Church" and no longer to be done.

I found an Orthodox priest at university who directed me to use an Orthodox prayerbook and to use a small volume of the Desert Fathers as my spiritual reading. That got me through many tough years.

I had continued to study since my confirmation and directed my study toward the Christian East. Today I breathe with both lungs of the Church, always asking "What does the Church say" and always leaning on Patristic sources. One of my spiritual fathers remarked to me that "the Fathers speak to you; you quote them as if they were your contemporaries." They are.

But this is all the Lord's leading me to where I am today, and I thank Him from the bottom of my heart for his care.

On another note, Father Gabriel Bunge has been received into the Russian Orthodox Church, tonsured into the Great Schema, and is now known as Schema-Archimandrite Gabriel Bunge.