www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Question about CIA revelations

Some of the classified documents being de-classified and released by the Trump administration show how the CIA had assets in place in the Vatican to manipulate the elections of Pope John XXIII and Paul VI (working in their favor to help them get elected for their own geo-political reasons). What would this mean for the supposed infallibility of the Popes? If CIA can get popes of their choosing elected it throws a real big question mark up on the idea of papal infallibility. I'm not mistaking infallibility for impeccability so that's not the question/argument I'm getting at. I just don't know what this will mean for us as Byzantine Catholics. Do we return to Orthodoxy? Do we remain in communion with Rome but reject papal infallibility (which we should already be doing)? What are your thoughts?

My belief in the papacy is not based on how good the succession process is. Christ established his church with a Pope. Just as the many horrible pontificates throughout history, the CIA successfully influencing the election of a pope doesn't invalidate the papacy.

Christ is in our midst!!

I take the position that the Holy Spirit can use whatever He wishes to accomplish the purposes He has in the Plan for the salvation of us all. Just like the recent revelations of how a group of cardinals schemed to get Pope Francis on St. Peter's throne, I am not moved.

Regardless of who sits on the papal throne, the Holy Spirit protects the Church as Christ promised. The gates of Hell will not prevail against her. I believe that as long as one person keeps the Faith inviolate in his heart and by his actions, the wrath of God will not blaze up and bring the Final Judgment. When the last person loses it, the mountains will melt like wax and fill in the lowly places, and the whole earth will become one vast plain. Then, St. Ephraim the Syrian says, we will all be brought naked to stand before Christ to have the reckoning of our deeds.

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Could you please provide links so that we may read the documents that " show how the CIA had assets in place to manipulate the elections" of those two Popes. Your comments are pretty serious.....I for one, would like to read the source material. Thanks

To be completely fair, I doubt papal infallibility as defined by VC1 is truly accurate. There's no historic or Patristic justification for the extreme ultramontanism some Latins profess, especially from the "trad" circles. The irony is that they profess ultramontanism while denouncing the current office holder for not being traditional enough. As an Oriental, I totally agree with all of the examples presented by the fathers on the unique place of St Peter and his successors, however the question lies in the limits and whether that elevated succession is truly in Rome or Antioch (or Alexandria). I would suggest St Peters authentic See is actually Antioch, as even Rome acknowledges to this day the Feast of the Chair, which is the founding of the See of Antioch. In addition, as controversial as it is, it could be argued that Rome was founded by two, St. Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles, and Simon the Magus the false teacher. St Peter later traveled to correct the errors of Magus and later there under arrest, but his actual See by choice after leaving Jerusalem was Antioch.

Your points are well taken. There is always room for a scholarly discussion about the role of Rome and St. Peter' primacy in the early Church, and it is always revealing on many levels.

However, this thread begins with a "revelation" of secular medeling by a U.S. government entity, into the Vatican, and it's choice of Popes. I would like to read these documents in order to establish whether there is any truth to this assertion...... or to determine whether this is yet another conspiracy theory meant to sow mistrust in governments and/ or the Church.

So, where can we find links to this?

The idea that secular governments interfere in the election of the Pope has never been new, as in the case of Pope St. Martin and Pope St. Liberius. The Byzantine Emperors and the German Emperors sometimes openly interfered in the election of the Pope, and there have always been factions with political interests and other purposes in the conclaves (remember when Blessed Pius IX was elected, or the election of Leo XIII and St. Pius X). But the manner in which the Pope is elected is also subject to God's will and divine purposes, and the person of the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit in any case.

As for papal infallibility, this is a dogma that has been taught for a long time and is not an obstacle to relations between the Roman Church and the Eastern Churches and other Christian groups (Blessed Leonid Feodorov even addressed this subject in lectures with Russian priests and had no difficulties). I believe that the greatest difficulty is that many groups of Catholics want the Pope to be infallible according to their tastes, and they forget that papal infallibility serves to express the teachings of the Catholic Church according to Sacred Scripture and the Holy Fathers, and not to approve or condemn what we like or dislike.

I believe Jay Dyer has them linked on his x account (I first became aware of them on a livestream he did talking about the CIA leaks around JFK). I don't take Jay as Gospel by any means but he is far more intelligent than his critics let on and he almost always does a good job of citing his sources. I just had the stream on as background noise while I was doing laundry over the weekend and going about the house. I would think if it were proven to be true, that the CIA elected certain popes via their influence who would fit their secularist (and particularly anti communist) agenda, then this would invalidate their pontificates. Especially how drastically the Latin Church has changed since John XXIII opened Vatican II. It would call literally everything into question from Vatican II on. And it would also, in my personal opinion, explain a great deal about the general decline of the Latin Church since Vatican II.

How could a pontificate be invalidated based on a questionable election years after the death of the pontiffs involved? Even more so since this is something that has historical precedents and has never been a reason to invalidate a pontificate (we would have to see the Church declaring the pontificates of St. Gregory VII and St. John I, among other pontiffs, not only of Rome, declared invalid).

It's quite the jump from your opening post of "The CIA having assets in place....to manipulate elections" to your most recent " if true....elected certain popes." Come on, are we really to believe the CIA elects Popes when it feels like it? Have we gone down the hole that far? As stated above, there have always been outside influences in Vatican decision making. But, if we think that is not true in other denominations, we are deluding ourselves.

In my opinion, there are just too many bloggers and U-tubers fanning flames out there, with their gusts about moral decay and negative Western influence. Too many conspiracy theorists and endtime doomsayers. Too many political-minded fast talkers spewing apochalytic nonsense in order to influence genuinely good people.......even tearing down the Catholic Church because its leader refuses to fit into their fears of modernity and a changing world. Why? It promotes their socio- political agenda and, to paraphrase a current " gust" , it makes for good TV.

As to your post titled " prayers for conversion":

Yes, I too pray that you make a good decision about your choice of a "True Church", whatever your definition of that is. ( by the way, what is it?) And, I really mean that.

However, I must say that a choice like this should be made because of the positive aspects of one Church in particular- a Church that is undeniably attractive to you. Making this choice by obsessing over the negatives of another one doesn't quite seem the right approach.

I haven't heard about this at all. And, even if it is true. So what? I don't think it disproves Catholic claims about the papacy.