www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Images of Mary wearing pallium

From what I understand it is technically possible for a woman to become a cardinal in the Catholic Church. Which was never done in the days when they did appoint rich lay people as Cardinals, and now they don't appoint even male laymen as Cardinals. But they could. Anyway, maybe this is not a pallium, but some item of dress suggesting the prelature rather than the episcopate (grin). Part of a rochet or mozetta? Although the lack of attention paid to Canon Law by this group does not make it likely they considered that interpretation..

N

They are saying that in the icons they are showing in the link in posting number 1. that it is a "Pallium" and in others a "Chasuble" and so it it goes. Different things are being claimed for the different pics. When you see the icon on the link, it is nothing like anything they say it is. As already said the Pallium, is I say the Cinture or Zone or Poyas of a woman.

ICXC
NIKA

Thank you all.

I searched a bit and got some information, from online Catholic Encyclopedia it is said:
While from Byzantines.net
Then basically it is in line with Zenovia's explanation.
I also try to find out some pictures of frescoes of Cathedral of Ravenna. And yes, almost all women depicted show that they have that white band.
http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ulj/mosaic53.jpg

Also Sarah and Abraham depicted wearing that kind of band.
http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ulj/mosaic21.jpg

The only thing that they will argue probably that Mary's band has a cross on it, simmilar to that of bishops.

In all of the pictures we see nothing of the "band" they are saying is being worn. All we see is a narrow strip of cloth from the waist hanging down.

An omophorion looks nothing like that and beside is not worn under the clothes apart from being a male garment as well.

If you want to see what it is you are looking at check out an image of the Theotokos knowns as our Lady of Lourdes. Here the so called "band" is clearly visible, as the veil is worn on the head only and not with part swept over the shoulder is in all Byzantine images.

She is not wearing priestly vestments at all and debunks their myth that the art proves their point. They claim that she was a member of the clergy and the Church has lied about this all through the centuries.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Friends,

The so-called pallium that is worn in those images is the Mantle of Protection itself. This is what the East calls the Mantle of Protection, the Protective Veil or the 'Pamaphor' - in the West it is the "pallium" or the "scapular" which is worn not only by bishops and higher church officials, but by Emperors and the like.

It is a symbol of Divine Grace and Protection and also a symbol indicating the person wearing it is specially consecrated to God's service and the service to God's people.

Alex

Alex the people who are behind this internet site are not talking about that garment, they are describing the narrow strip of cloth we can see the end off that is in the various icons. They are saying we are looking at the end of a garment, that due to veil, we cant see the top of. They are telling us what it is we can't see because of the Veil. They are saying this is the Pallium and therefore Mary was a bishop and this is the proof.

They are very clear in the notes attached to the image of Mary meeting her cousin Elizabeth as to what it is they are on about.



ICXC
NIKA

Dear Pavel,

I am talking about that strip of cloth too, Brat Pavel!

Before it became a church garment, it was used widely in Roman circles by civil servants to indicate their office as "servants to the public."

Roman Emperors wore it as did Roman magistrates and others (they also wore the double-looped chain of office for the same reason, and our priests today wear the double-looped chain with their pectoral Crosses).

In the Christian reinterpretation, it can but does not need to have anything to do with the Priesthood.

Alex

Hey guys. I was just reading the site linked in the original post, and and what they claim is silly. I have heard the same argument made that in icons of the theotokos she wears the priestly cuffs reserved for the clergy. What they are forgetting is that all the vestments are based off of the period clothing/vestments excetera. Cuffs, embroidery, lace, were worn by noblity, priesthood etc. and so they adapted some of these.

I am surpried they only use the theotokos. In this very popular icon of st paraskevi it looks like she is wearing a priests epitrochilion (not sure of the other words used but I think most people know what I mean)

[Linked Image]

Of course we know she's not, but I guess people will twist anything to make it look like what they want it to be.


PS. Anhelyna it's me Greg

Indeed and it is - Welcome to Byzcath

Now be prepared to be welcomed by someone offering you some good dark Chocolate - we are very partial to it here - and as you well know [ well I hope you do ] as it contains no dairy it's permitted

Now come and relax and start posting

Dear Greg,

How do you know Anhelyna?

In actual fact, St Paraskevi in your icon is wearing the Great Schema - something all women monastics may legitimately wear.

Alex

Alex all we are talking about is the ends of a lady's poyas. This does nothing more than serve as a belt in modern language. I am sure all women wore one of these but never made it into icons and onto the walls of basilicas. I am sure the Emperor wore one of these as it kept his pants up . Next we will be saying he was an Archbishop as well.

The icon of St Paraskeva shows her dressed as a nun of the great habit or schema. That which was thought to be a priests vestment by Greg is worn by monks and nuns of the great schema to this day.

As for Angela, well that girl gets around . One day helping a Church on the otherside of the world or putting people in contact with other members of the forum, also very far away (from her and each other). Always there to offer there to offer bread, salt and chocolate (dairy outside of Lent).

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Orthodox Catholic,

I know Anhelyna from another board. (By thew way I will take anyone up on the dark chocolate)

Yes I realize that St. Paraskevi is wearing the Monastic Schema, but I was just pointing out that anybody who has an agenda like those women could take an icon like that, and say it is proof of their cause. The icon I posted actually happens to be one of my favorites, because my grandmother has a really old version of the same exact icon on her iconostatasis.

By the way if you look at the end of my post you will see that I do know that she is not wearing a priests vestments, I was just trying to put myself in another person's perspective.

Sure Greg sure. :rolleyes:

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Pavel,

The wearing of a pallium/naplechnyk etc. is what I'm talking about - is it not what you're talking about?

And the Emperors wore these "scapulars" (from the Latin word for "shoulder") that draped them front and back, as it does our Hierarchs and also our monastics in the Great Schema.

They signify readiness to serve the people of God.

One Orthodox writer I read long ago commented on the Feast of the Mantle of our Lady's Protection and said, "We should all take a string from the fringes of the Mother of God's Mantle of Protection and place it on ourselves, front and back, as a sign of our readiness to serve God and His Mother for the building up of the Church!"

And one need not be a Hierarch to do that.

Alex

Dear all,
thanks for so much info.

I think we all agree that the claim from the organization endorsing woman priest is silly.

What I like to know in the beginning was what that part of the garment is and its historical usage. And I got enough information from this thread.

Again, thank you