www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Images of Mary wearing pallium

When I was surfing some images of pallium, I found this link:
http://www.womenpriests.org/mrpriest/gallery1.asp

The website claims that Mary is wearing a pallium.

If it is a pallium, when was pallium reserved for bishops only?

What rubbish! My guess is that all we see is possibly the ends hanging down from the girdle she wears around the waist.

The large veil (many Moslem women still dress this way today) is suddenly a chausuble, a royal throne is an episcopal cathedra and a crown is a mitre, a royal garment is a dalmatic.

They are making items in the various icons etc mean what they want to suit their agenda. They dont want facts to get in the way of a good story. The Poor Clare Colletines and the others involved should be ashamed for supporting such tripe, bilge, hogwash.

Palliums are reserved for the Latin Rite Archbishops who are Metropolitans with the exception of the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem.

ICXC
NIKA

Well I am totally ignorant of all of these articles - now there's a surprise - NOT :p

However it does strike me rather forcibly that the 'evidence' can always be made to fit the outcome you want - and this has been done on the page that was linked by Alfonsus.

Sorry ladies - I just don't accept your descriptions of the Blessed Mother

Good folk,

Iconography is something is a code, of sorts - not everything is to be taken literally. Many of these things are symbolic and meant to be read with the knowledge of faith and what these symbols mean.

It wouldn't surprise me to see images of the Mother of God with a pallium - she is, after all, the Queen of Bishops.

There was a medi�val tradition of depicting the Mother of God in priestly vestments - hence the tradition of venerating 'Mary Priest'. After all, she gave birth to Christ - and that is what each priest does at the Eucharist. This does not necessarily follow that this sort of imagery is an argument in favour of women's ordination.

Very interesting Ed thank you.

And Angela, I am in total agreement with you - these ladies are NUTS!!!

I agree that they are trying to advance their agenda.

The last picture, showing Mary sitting on a throne can easily be refuted. She is sitting on a royal throne instead of bishop throne.

The one that claimed as wearing a dalmatic then showing her as a deacon is also absurd. It is clearly representation of Mary wearing a Byzantine cloak as a Queen.

But as for the white band on the rest of images of Mary does intriguing.
Even if that is not pallium, I'm still interested to know what it is.

I took a religious art history class at school, and the teacher said that these images of the Theotokos wearing priestly vestments is a symbol of the Church vested with priestly authority. Mary was the first disciple of Christ, and she never denied Christ or committed sin, therefore the image of Mary is the most appropriate to show the purity of the Church in Christ. This can be seen due to the hands being in the orans (the up lifted hands) position denoting the Church is offering prayers to God. Thus, the presence of the omophorion (pallium) on Mary show the priestly authority that God has given the Church to offer acceptable sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ. I hope this helps.

Jesse Venner

I see no one has read my posting and my contibution to what 'it' is.

The large veil (many Moslem women still dress this way today) is suddenly a chausuble, a royal throne is an episcopal cathedra (chair) and a crown is a mitre, a royal garment is a dalmatic.

oops second coffee of the morning calling me...must go

ICXC
NIKA

Can I tell y'all a little story.

Years ago I used to sculpt - mostly ethnic busts, i.e. orientals, african, slavic, indians, etc as well as bas reliefs. My work won many awards and acknowledgements.

Well, I once won "best in show" as well as "first prize" at the museum's exhibition. The "best in show" piece was a slavic peasant woman, babuska, wrinkles and all. I thought it was a fun piece as it had what I thought was a somewhat humorus expression. Well, this piece was written up in the art section of a local newspaper. I really laughed after reading the writer's discription of how this sculpture represented the war-torn countries of Europe, showing the suffering and hardships that existed there.

Anyway, this seemed to fit this topic which obviously boils down to misreading a piece of art. It always amazes me to think what the viewer reads into something. Or, how the viewer's agenda colors his/her perspective.

The offending item is the ends of the accessory women used to gather their outer garment at the waist. Tradition has it that this was at one stage in Constantinople in one of their churches.

I saw an icon of St Paul the other day and the horse in the back ground has a Y shaped item about it's neck. Am I to suppose that Horses were also made bishops in the early church. I dont think so! To all who know the Y shaped itme was not a Pallium but that which helps keep the saddle in place on the horses back.

ICXC
NIKA

I have to agree with the premise of Pavel's posts. Things can be read into Iconography if one wants to justify one's point of belief. Unfortunately, after viewing the images I believe any of our iconographers here on the forum can offer a better explanation.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I take back all the nasty things I said about you and chocolate .

ICXC
NIKA

"Palliums are reserved for the Latin Rite Archbishops who are Metropolitans with the exception of the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem."

That would be pallia to you.

Isn't he an actor . Latin scholars #!%"&$ :rolleyes:


ICXC
NIKA

Dear Alphonso,

I know nothing about these things, but what is described as a pallium in the link, in other words a band around the shoulders and coming down the front and back of a garment, can be seen on the Empress Theodora in a cathedral in Ravenna...or so I believe.

Actually, it seems to have been a mode of dress in that time...at least for the nobility and those that could well afford it. If the bishops wear a 'woolen' one, then it must have had it's symbolic and practical purpose. The wool representing a shepard, as well as keeping the bishop warm...or so I think.

Zenovia