www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Reclaiming the Ancient Traditions

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!
Slava Isusu Christu! Slava na viki!

Sharon, et al:
I do wholeheartedly agree with you that the faith of the person and their understanding of church services are much more important than teaching or using an ancient language. What I feel is that even though we are in America, and we are primarily English speakers, we shouldn't give up the heritage of our church just to make it more appealing to converts or people who can't or don't wish to learn another language. I, for one, feel that if the church loses its sense of ethnic/cultural heritage, then eventually other traditions in our faith will die out also. This doesn't mean that an American who wants to become Byzantine Catholic should be made to feel that he or she should learn Russian, Ukrainian, Carpatho-Rusyn, Greek, or any other language to 'fit in', nor should they have to attend services they can't possibly understand. But why can't there be a Saturday liturgy in Slavonic, for example, and a Sunday liturgy in English (when the majority of people will be there)? I'm not talking about forcing people to attend services in other languages, just that if your parish is Russian, there should be Slavonic services available for the faithful who wish to attend them. Also, it seems that no one is willing to address the subject of matins, vespers, hours, etc., but I hope that someone will give some input on this, too. A priest or deacon, maybe, to offer their perspective on reclaiming this tradition which has all but been lost in the Byzantine Catholic parishes of America. As far as beards, the Great Church Council of 1551 (I know, you're probably thinking, 'How does that affect me?') ruled that clergy and laymen alike were to wear beards. However, if one is of Oriental or Native American descent, and cannot grow a beard, then there is no fault in that, of course. They have a right as much as anyone to pursue their vocation. For example, my own pastor cannot grow his beard, and I do not question the validity of his or any other presbyter's ministry. Basically, I feel that, if you can grow it, then grow it, but if you can't, no big deal. If, however, you CHOOSE not to wear a beard (again, I can't see any reason why this would happen), then that is another matter. I hope this all makes sense, and I look forward to your continued input. God bless and have a good day. Theodosy, servant of God, future monk.

Our Church has a 1900 year history of not using automobiles, telephones, airplanes, fax machines, celluar phones, computers, blah, blah, blah. Should we go back to the first century Apostles and travel walking from town to town in our sandals preaching the gospel. Or should we take advantage of the technology available to us today to bring people closer to Christ?

Should we stop brushing our teeth everyday, wearing socks on our feet, wearing eyeglasses, keeping our hair neat and groomed? Should our priest remain celibate because Jesus never married? Did Jesus ever wear anything on His head such as a cap, hat, or other head covering? I see many priests and bishops wear a head covering.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

Theodosy wrote:
>What I feel is that even though we are in >America, and we are primarily English >speakers, we shouldn't give up the heritage >of our church just to make it more appealing >to converts or people who can't or don't >wish to learn another language.

My very dear in Christ, according to the Bible I have, the fundamental mission given to us as His disciples is evangelism. To spread the Good News of Jesus Christ. Our primary goal must be to fulfill that mission.

It's not just converts who find Slavonic (or Greek, or Ukrainian, or Macedonian) an obstacle. It's also the children and grandchildren of those who founded our churches.

(I agree that Vespers and Matins should be restored wherever possible. My pastor finds the extremely low attendance to be discouraging, and so is not particularly inclined.)

We do not have "anticipated" Liturgies. I would be loathe to institute one in an effort to restore "authentic" practice! My parish is multi-ethnic, and a lot of the ethnicities don't come from anywhere near Eastern Europe.
On "Slavonic Sundays" there are always fewer children, and some families are missing entirely. My husband refers to them as "hum along Sundays." We have only one priest and one altar, so it's the only liturgical opportunity for the Sunday. I think it hurts us as a parish.

There are maybe a dozen people in our parish who understand the Slavonic Liturgy. Most of them are elderly, and their children and grandchildren do not worship with us. I sing it. Apparently my pronunciation is passably decent. I know what the service says, but I don't necessarily understand the words I am singing. How is this helpful?

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!
Slava Isusu Christu! Slava na viki!

Sharon,
I agree with you in regards that not many people understand or wish to learn Slavonic, Greek, Arabic, etc. And yes, the primary mission of the church is to evangelize, to bring the love and hope that only our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ can provide. Do you suggest, however, that the Eastern Churches in America use only English in the Divine Services? What about new immigrants that come over and don't understand English. How are they to worship? Are they to be forced to learn their faith over again so that they can worship in English. Must they be forced to divest themselves of their ethnic identity? While the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church has no 'ethnic' or 'racial' identity itself, but instead belongs to the whole of humanity, the individual members do. Why should we ask Ukrainians living in America to forget that they are Ukrainian? Doesn't each Byzantine Church (Russian, Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Melkite, etc.) have its own native customs in addition to those that are universally Eastern Christian and universally Catholic? Yes. Again, I'm not saying to make exclusively Slavonic or Greek or Arabic services, although in places with lots of immigrants, this should be encouraged. Why can't we have bi-lingual services, in bi-lingual prayerbooks, and then people can read in whatever language they want and can see what the words are in the other language. Theodosy, servant of God.

YES to: de-Latinizing the liturgy, restoring icon screens & other authentic elements of Byzantine traditions.

NO to: becoming Luddites, Amish or members of the Society for Creative Anachronism!

We are 20th century (verging on 21st century) Americans, and need to transform THIS culture, not try to recreate 19th century Russian piety (as others have said elsewhere in this forum). Why "major on the minors"? That is, why worry about "beards" when there are so many other issues of higher priority?

BTW --- I enjoy OCS, but wouldn't impose it upon the majority who speak and understand English.

SLAVA NA VIKI!

unworthy sinner CAPTL

Slava Susu Christu!

I like beards on Monks, Clery and men of the laity. It appears to de of a timeless wisdom, like Moses come down from the mountain after seeing God.

Orthodox is a counter culture to what is going on in America, and I think this apperance expresses that the Orthodox faith is an alternitive to what choices are out there. Timeless Saints even Modern Saints are expressed in our Icons with beards.

I am not saying that it is manditory, but that there should be room for men to express themsleves in this manner without scoff. Even Laity should have this freedom. It is not dishonorable for Orthodox men to express there Orthodox faith by wearing a beard. Nor married women to wear scarves (bobushkas sp?). And what about women in church or out wearing "chapel caps." This is not American either.

A sinner,
Joyce

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!
Slava Isusu Christu! Slava na viki!

Joyce,
Thank you sincerely for your comments. I truly agree that a man wearing a beard to express the wearer's Orthodox faith is a quite venerable tradition. Of course it cannot be mandated, but it is encouraged in the Code of Canon Law of the Holy Byzantine Catholic Church.

Theodosy, servant of God.

OOOOOHHHHH!!!!

I just flashed on an old "Dilbert" cartoon.
Remember when Dilbert went to the the techno-
geek conference? Before he went onto the conference floor, he had to rent a beard.

What an opportunity. We can maintain our Orthodoxy, AND make a few bucks for the Church in the process. Just install two vending machines in the vestibule. One dispenses single-use beards in a variety of colors, lengths and states of grooming. The other features a selection of babushkas, chapel veils, mantillas and sombreros for the ladies. Drop your coin, make your choice, and go on to praise God properly accoutered.

Franchises will be available shortly.




Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Doxa Theo!

Sharon,

You write: Last Sunday at Orthros we had two people! Yet we offer Vespers on Saturday night and Orthros just before the Divine Liturgy. There have even been days when my pastor and I were the only two at Orthros. Yet, that will not stop it.

Fr. Deacon Edward

Father Deacon,

The Lord said something about "two or more" being gathered. As far as I am concerned, if there are two people in church, those two people are there because they want to be there. Counting all the angels and saints, the place is very crowded, and God is praised. But I'm a religious fanatic. Some folks - when there are two people in church - can only see all the empty pews. (the obvious solution is to remove the pews...... )

I shall be in church this evening, along with maybe three or four others. (No beard, but I will have something on my head ) I will offer special thanks to God for folks like you and your pastor.

Happy Feast of St. Andrew everybody!

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Glory to Jesus Christ!
It is truly wonderful of all of you who are able to attend daily Matins and Vespers.I would very gratefully attend Vespers and Matins myself if it were not for the 25 mile drive in the rush hour traffic and if they were offered earlier/later in the day than my normal working hours.This may also be the reason that there are only two people in your church during these services.

God Bless!

I was raised RC during the time of the Latin Mass, and from an early age I did my best to sing along in Latin with what I thought the choir was saying. (What I thought "sed libera nos a malo" sounded like was pretty funny.) By the time I was in 2nd grade I wanted a missal so that I could follow along. The Latin was on one page and the English on the page directly across so I always knew what was being said. Also, the epistle and gospel were repeated in English prior to the homily.

When I was in the 6th grade the altars got turned around and the people were invited to join the responses that only acoloytes had previously uttered. The nuns in our school went over the Latin with us and we learned what we were saying. I still remember that "Ad introibo ad altari Dei, ad Dei qui laetificat juvem tutem meum" means "I will go unto the altar of God, the God who gives joy to my youth." OCS would be more difficult because of the alphabet, but theoretically it could be written phonetically with the Roman alphabet. Often I listen to the OCS version of the Divine Liturgy on the web and find that each time I pick up another word or phrase. If I can do this in middle age, I'm sure children would do it even more easily.

If we can accept the concept of praying in tongues why can't we accept that people can pray in Latin or OCS just as validly as in English? Why does even the liturgy have to be "dummied down" to the lowest common denominator? Why not try to raise our linguistic abilities?

I'm in favor of OCS as a second language for all Byzantines!

Slava Isusu Christu! Slava na viki!

Sophia,
I agree! The Church should be able to use Old Church Slavonic along with English in services. It is a beautiful language, and it's not terribly hard to learn, even with the Cyrillic alphabet. I have a 1905 priest's service manual for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, published in Ukraine, and I can read the entire Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, in Church Slavonic. I'm not a linguist, and I don't have any family background in Slavic languages. Some of the most beautiful sounds I've heard is the chanting of hymns in OCS by the monks of Valaam Monastery in Russia. The Divine Liturgy is, inherently, a service of extreme beauty. With OCS chanted by choir and congregation in Carpatho-Rusyn plainchant would make the Divine Services even more beautiful then they already are.

P.S. May everyone have a blessed feastday of St. Nicholas, the patron of our Byzantine Catholic Church. Holy Father Nicholas, pray for us!

Doxa Theo!

Sophia,

I'm curious, do you really mean all Byzantines? The Melkite Church, for example, is technically Byzantine but their language is Arabic.

Fr. Deacon Edward

I'm confused--are Eastern-rite Catholic Priests allowed to marry?