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Even though this is a reply to a post in another thread, I have chosen to reply under another 'new topic' as to not detract from the wonderful announcement regarding 'Converting to Orthodoxy' by one of the list subscribers
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Once again, as in many times during the past five years, I am offended by what one Gerard Serafin Bugge has posted and referenced in reply to one's rejoicing over a major decision they have made regarding their religious identity.

This will be my one and only posting regarding this because I do not want to start another flame war with this man. I've been through too many with him already. But, in defense of my faith, and probably because I am on the top of the list of big bad Orthodox he refers to, I have to respond in kind.


Gerard writes:

In this form -

[It seems to me, anyway, that too infrequently when people speak of converting to Orthodoxy that Jesus Christ has any real role and place - it is focussed on other things (perhaps good in themselves).
I have read countless "testimonies" of those who have converted to Orthodoxy - what seems missing too often is any mention of Our Lord Himself and his gospel.]


Reply: Gerard, during your brief stint in the Orthodox Catholic Church you must have been sleeping during Liturgy when the choir was responding with 'Lord Have Mercy' and 'Grant It Oh Lord'! Have you ever counted the Old & and New Testament quotations that are said throughout the Liturgy of St John? You write trash like the above and then complain about the Orthodox reaction you get?

And on the referenced web site -

[I have experienced deep pain from Orthodox persons who have, at least as I experienced it - let me be blunt - savaged me over and over on various mailing lists and boards (and seemingly doing it often enough to the applause of the Orthodox multitudes, though here and there a voice of protest might be raised.).]

Reply: Then why do you keep joining Orthodox lists? Stay away if you don't like the responses you get to your insulting posts. Perhaps you should take the time to ask yourself WHY! Instead of whining about the injustice you have received from Orthodox in response to some of your posts on their discussion groups Gerard. The first clue is perhaps in the following quotation by you -

["At times I was playful and feisty and had some fun even! But, I hope and pray, I never overstepped boundaries into personal attacks and harsh and cruel judgments about others (and, sadly, I found this being done about me over and over and over)."�]

Reply: As a person who has read and replied to your posts on more than one Orthodox discussion group Gerard, what you call fiesty, playful, and having fun was in fact rude, crude, inaccurate, condesending, insulting, hypocitical, judgemental, and degrading. And you overstepped the boundaries on more occassion than I care to rememeber. And thats why you got the reactions you did on more than one discussion group. But, you are well aware of that already.

[I have wondered many times now: what are young Orthodox or new Orthodox taught about the use of the tongue (keyboard) and about the sins of detraction and slander?]

Reply: Perhaps you should examine your own conscience Gerard. An reread some of the things you have written over the years regarding the Orthodox Catholic Church. Including what you have written in this web site.
You have gone so far as to lie (which you have admitted but label as bombasts) and on one occassion used your own mother in one of those lies just to insult and get a reaction from the Orthodox.

[And by "kindness" I include reverence and respect and the simple human virtues of civility and decency.]

Reply: Perhaps if you would learn to practice what you preach Gerard, you wouldn't have to whine about the Orthodox responses you have received over the years here and elsewhere.

OrthoMan

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

As I said I do not reply to ad hominemposts.

Quod scripsi, scripsi.

And reaffirm it all the more!

(And maybe someday I'll post the responses I am receiving from my website and blog entry "with a heavy heart" - and from Orthodox as well as Catholics).

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: Gerard Serafin ]

I do not know how to contact the adminstrators but ask publically: are ad hominems permitted on this board?

If someone wishes to disagree with statements another makes, fine. Makes for a good discussion! I like that!

But to start attacks on persons - is that OK?

I hope not.

And since someone quoted portions of my words let me post the entire update on my "That All May Be One" Page:

"With a heavy heart:

Nota Bene (7/26/02): The page below was mostly composed over a period when I was convinced there was some real hope of unity between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church. Today that hope is completely shattered on the human level.

This is based on what I have seen and heard on the "international" level as well as what I have seen and heard on the more "local" level (and that includes experiences on the internet). Personally, too, while I count some Orthodox as friends and brethren in Christ, I have experienced deep pain from Orthodox persons who have, at least as I experienced it - let me be blunt - savaged me over and over on various mailing lists and boards (and seemingly doing it often enough to the applause of the Orthodox multitudes, though here and there a voice of protest might be raised.). This has, to be sure, contributed to my hopelessness and brokenheartedness.

Of course, I have not been perfect in my dealings with others and ask forgiveness for any hurt I may have caused. My enthusiasm and love for my own Church has been seen by so many, it seems, as an attack on them or a negation of their own cherished Tradition. Much of this was shared as I responded to people who were puttng forth inaccurate and false statements about Catholicism and Catholic faith. At times I was playful and feisty and had some fun even! But, I hope and pray, I never overstepped boundaries into personal attacks and harsh and cruel judgments about others (and, sadly, I found this being done about me over and over and over).

I have wondered many times now: what are young Orthodox or new Orthodox taught about the use of the tongue (keyboard) and about the sins of detraction and slander? From my experience many seem not to have been taught what I was taught as a Catholic, and what is set forth in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. (Of course, Catholics offend too but I have found that these are "checked" by other Catholics who can present the clear norms of the Catholic Church in these areas). I have noticed much over my years on the internet: in general, Catholics are much "kinder" to Orthodox than Orthodox are to Catholics. And by "kindness" I include reverence and respect and the simple human virtues of civility and decency.

To any Orthodox offended by these words, I realize there are "blessed exceptions" and some of the finest Christians I know are Orthodox. But more and more I wonder how they do it and how they manage to keep open and truthful (and, sadly, some I know are unable to be honest and fully open with their fellow Orthodox, and they "walk on eggshells" in their own ecclesial home - and yet can be freer and open with Catholics!!!!!).

And, I might add, all of this has given me a deeper than ever appreciation for the Catholic Church. Thank you, O my God, for the gift of Catholic faith!

As an exercise of the theological virtues of faith, hope and of charity, I leave this page as it is - and ask the Lord to heal my hurt and give me deeper holiness - and ask your prayers as well. God richly bless you! Come, Holy Spirit!"

God has blessed some of us by decreeing that we remain on fringe of organized Christianity.

A solipsistic world view cannot build the kingdom of God.

Abdur

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gerard Serafin:


>>>But to start attacks on persons - is that OK?<<<

Maybe if you were just a tad less triumphalist, Gerard?

And if you tried to remember that the Balamand Statement says specifically that because both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are fully sufficient to ensure the salvation of their mutual adherents that no "conversion" from one Church to the other is essential for salvation.

It also says that all APPEARENCES of proselytization are to be avoided.

For myself, I don't think it possible to "convert" from the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Church or vice versa, since each one is an integral part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. If more people thought this way, putting aside all pretensions and parochial interests, the Schism would end almost immediately.

Stuart writes:

Maybe if you were just a tad less triumphalist, Gerard?

Who? Moi?

I know what you mean, I think.

But I am a "romantic" at heart and I hope I love the Catholic Church with not just my mind, but with my whole heart and soul. So at times I can see where it can appear "triumphalistic" (and maybe I am even guilty - only God knows the depths of my own heart).

I realize we are all different and unique. And our own styles do not always appeal to all. But, I hope and pray, my approach is one of loyalty, gratitude, and a deep and abiding love.

The longer I live the more I fall in love with the Church!

I believe Mother Teresa once put it this way: "I love all religions; but I am in love with mine."

Anyway, Stuart, I appreciate your comments.

The Byzantine Forum is a forum that welcomes discussions on almost any topic and especially welcomes discussions focusing on Byzantine Christianity and all things Eastern Christian. What has made this Forum one of the best on the internet is the fact that all legitimate positions of the posters and the individual posters themselves are treated with equal respect by both the Forum itself as well as by other participants. In this respect The Byzantine Forum is pan-Byzantine. This means that it is not a Byzantine Catholic Forum because if it were it could not be home to Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics and other Catholics, Protestant Christians and even non-Christians. Each participant must remember and respect this at all times in order for this Forum to succeed and, more importantly, for each of your witnesses of Christ to be meaningful. In short, make sure your posts reflect not only the actual position of your own Church but also the Christian love and respect expected of us by the Savior.

I have read Gerald Serafin's posts in this thread as well as in the thread entitled "Converting to Orthodoxy". To be honest, I am quite disappointed with some of his posts and openly ask him to make every attempt to be more respectful of others on this Forum. It seems that every post of his is nothing more than a put down of anything that is not Catholic. True enthusiasm and love for one's Church never comes at the expense of another Church or its members. I, as a Byzantine Catholic, am deeply offended by Mr. Serafin's statement that he finds fine Orthodox Christians to be the "blessed exceptions" among the majority as I know this to be untrue. I have many good friends who are Orthodox and have yet to meet even one Orthodox Christian who fits the description which Mr. Serafin seems to apply to all. I also find other posts of his to be equally offensive and self-righteous but will not detail them here. If Mr. Serafin really believes what he posts as he has posted it then he has yet to understand the Catholic faith he claims to be enthusiastic about. It is possible that Mr. Serafin does not realize that his posting style is offensive to others and I ask posters to forget any offense they have seen his is previous posts and allow him to adopt a new posting style, one that is equally respectful of other people and other Churches.

Please let this discussion end here.