www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Reconsideration

Dear Robert,

My friend, as a Jordanian, you know the Levant is not the Balkans or Russia/Ukraine. (Antiochian Rum, Ortodox and Katoleek, heavily intermarry) You know that we as Arabs and nationalists tend to isolate ourselves much from the rest of our communions (you are the only Arab who can actually speak Arabic that I have ever seen on a Christian board--the Melkites here are all Americans, which to me was quite a bewildering experience) and that the plurality of Churches (which includes a plethora from all the communions including the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox) as well as our minority as Christians amongst Muslims prevent a sharp Byzantine Catholic/Orthodox polarization similiar to that in Greece and Eastern Europe. In addition, the Melkites as you know are not small fragments like Russian Catholics and some of Eastern Europe. As a very strong and solid Patriarchal Church that has ever been instrumental in pushing Rome towards a genuine recognition of the East (during VatI&II as Fr. Ed has pointed out), dialog is taken seriously between the two Antiochian Churches. As isolationists trying to spearhead our projects, we tend to be seen by Rome as a hot potato, especially after Say'yedna Zoghbi's initiative. What usually acts as a counterforce to our (Cath. and Orth.) zealousness to reunite the chair of Antioch is the influence of Rome and that of the Orthodox communion which the Antiochian Church has to take into account. As Antiochian Arab laymen who really don't give a flying flip in the Levant about the Churches of both communions "out there" beyond the borders of the Arab world, we start getting sick of the hierarchs "stalling", while they on the other hand have to deal with answering to the bodies of Churches of the communions to which they respectively belong. Of course, it should be noted that Antiochian Orthodox abroad and in the Levant think differently. They unfortunately seem to have become two different Churches, hence the push for autonomy abroad. (I have a highly charged and fanatical ethnic bellicosity, as I'm sure you know--I hate "American" Churches, especially if they happen to have been created out of Arab ethnic Churches, in one case driving pissed off Arab Orthodox to the MARONITES (!!!) of all people!) In the Levant, the two Antiochian Churches take their relations seriously and correspond with one another.

Also, attitudes in Jordan and Palestine amongst the populace may be different than those in Syria and Lebanon.

The Greek ruled Patriarchate of Jerusalem is of course a different story, but I speak of Antioch in this case.

Furthermore ya akhi, shoo baak? The Jewish Holocaust? Rome, unlike the cowards of certain governments, heroicly recognizes THE first 20th c. Holocaust, the slaughter of Armenian martyrs by Turkish savages. How can you swallow this filthy Yahoodi-Sahyooni propaganda and slander so typical of Holocaust monopolizers who abuse the memories of the Nazis' victims? (I should add that Israeli politicians initally praised Pope Pius XII, but now it has become fashionable for Israelis to bash him) Please, ya Robert, it's not even something to joke about. The Holocaust and anti-Semitism today are tools employed by men of no honor with no respect for those who died, to beat people with, and as Arabs, we are not strangers to these tactics. I really wouldn't have expected what I read to have come from you.

Robert, we're already very familiar with your opinions of Rome. But please my friend don't get carried away and embrace such a base charge.

La tiz'al, ya abur Rub, but the Holocaust charge crossed the line.

In IC XC
Samer

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: SamB ]

FrDeaconEd,
One more note regarding Vatican I and Melkite participation: it was a terrible mistake! So much for honor and glory. If that was a Melkite achievement I would not want anything to do with any reunion that contradicts Orthodox truths. Vatican II was not another improvement. Yes, Rome's attitude did change about the Eastern Orthodox Churches. One can change the attitude that suits their global interest(i.e.subverting the Orthodox Church). Vatican I put the squeeze on the Melkites to conform and to confirm Papal domination. It's right there in the history books.

La tookhaf. Ana biz'alish. Lakin ma tiz'al minney.

Ya azizzy Samer,
I will not forget reading the Chicago Sun-Times in May 1994 (I know the Yahood own it) entitled "Vatican Admits Guilt For Holocaust Climate".
It stated that
"The Roman Catholic Church was partly responsible for the centuries of persecutions of the Jews that led to the Holocaust, the Vatican acknowledged in a draft document..."

At this time in my life I was caught of guard by such a pronouncement coming from the highest level of Roman Church authority in addition to what I had read in history of other papal crimes against humanity. Orthodoxy has no equivalent. Understand that I was not indoctrinated into Orthodoxy at the time. Such a reflection of Rome made the decisive turn to become Orthodox. I asked myself, "How could the Holy Spirit lead the Church to committ such horror?" Christ did not make the mistake when He said that the Spirit of Truth would guide the Church into all truths. Obviously, the post-schism Popes spoke on their own authority and not that of Holy Tradition. If the Holy Spirit resided in the Roman communion there would be no apology for past barbaric acts.

The problems in the Middle East have had the historical smell of the Vatican in conjunction with the Zionist perpetrators. Anti-semitism was real in Catholic Europe and its end result landed on our laps in Palestine. Western Christianity deviated from Holy Tradition and has created modern-day problems for all of us despite where we live( I believe that there are over 40 million Christian Zionists in America). That's not to say other religions like Islam are not to blame for our precarious & isolated existence as Arab Christians. Please do not misunderstand the reality as I know it. I am sure there is much more to know and learn about the hidden secrets of the Vatican and its association with Zionism. The Catholic Church recognizes the great lie that lives in the Middle East---Zionism. Zionism has no respect for either Christian or Muslim, Arab or non-Arab because it is Jewish self-centerd. Why doesn't the Vatican come out and say that Zionsim is racist, bigoted, and heretical? Is it fear of being labeled anti-Semitic? I am aware that the Pope comes out with statements against the violence in Palestine but that is not good enough for someone like me that detests Zionsim to her very core. Do you know what is the Vatican's view of Zionism?

There is no fear but the fear of God. His fear is what will save us from the modern-day heresies of Zionism and its likely supporters.

Robert,

I think you misunderstand the position of the Melkites and Rome. As far as Rome is concerned, the Melkites are a "leading light" among the Eastern Catholics -- truly recovering their heritage. In the lands where Melkites coexist with the Orthodox there is much intercommunion. Yes, Rome does have some issues with regard to reunion, and in fact these same concerns were raised by the Orthodox!

At the same time, I don't see any "domination" of the Melkites by Rome. Rather, I see the Melkite Church treated pretty evenly by Rome because of their strong stance.

Edward, deacon and sinner