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I have had an opportunity to speak to an Orthodox priest and he told me that the Byzantine Catholic Churches are not needed anymore because Pope Paul VI removed the Bull of schism against the Greek Church. And since the Churches are not in schism that the rightful place for me is in the Orthodox Church. His argument sounded really convincing. I have chosen to study with him. Maybe I have gotten to latinized; I need to re-discover my roots. I just thought I would tell you all. Thank you.

Dear Joyce,

Well, that's quite a change of course, from leaving your Eastern Church juridically to diving deeper into Easternness! I'm Orthodox so of course I am happy for you.

As for that priest's comment on the Eastern Catholic Churches, he is half-right. Since Catholicism now explicitly recognizes the Churchness of the Orthodox — it always recognized Orthodox sacraments but once saw their Churches as somehow illegitimate for not being "under the Pope' — there are no more attempts to create new Byzantine Catholic Churches by converting people from the Orthodox. Born Orthodox are seen as already in the Church — de facto Catholics.

However, and I'm sure our Byzantine Catholic hosts on this forum will agree, his statement may not seem fair or even may be seen as vaguely threatening by the very real present-day Byzantine Catholic Churches, made up of generational (for centuries) members for whom they are home.

One doesn't want to see a repeat of 1946 and 1950, when the Byzantine Catholic Churches in the Rusyn-Ukrainian homeland (the Carpathian Mountains) were forcibly eliminated.

In time, many here pray, the Schism will end and then, perhaps, many of the current Byzantine Catholic groups will cease to exist as separate from their parent Orthodox Churches. (In such a scenario, the Melkite Church is formally committed to dissolving and merging with the Orthodox patriarchate of Antioch.) Nobody here wants to destroy the village Byzantine Catholic church and congregation in the old country, or in Lorain, Ohio, for that matter, but as far as redundant bishoprics and synods go, duplicating Orthodox church structures, I will quote one present-day respected Byzantine Catholic priest in a position of authority: "Our vocation is to disappear'.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Our vocation is to disappear. However, I'm not interested in that until there is reunion. Peter Gilquist is doing a fine job for the OCA. I'm praying that some of us will have the courage to do for the BC's what he is doing for the OCA's. Our vocation won't be accomplished until reunion. Until then and even after then I expect to do some serious evangelization.

Dan Lauffer

Dan, I think we are in agreement. Minor point: isn't Fr Peter Gillquist still in the Antiochian Church?

Joyce,

I think the statement th epriest made is greatly oversimplified. First, the bull of excommunication was of limited scope. The Roman Legate, who was without "canonical office" excommunicated Patriarch Michael Cerularius and the Emperor, not the entire Byzantine Church. Cerularius, in return, excommunicated only the legats (there were four, one of whom became a pope).

The estrangement between the Churches developed over the course of history, and the sacking of Constantinople was probably the final straw for the Greek Church, but the Russian Church continued communion for many years after tht (depending on who you beleive, as much as 400 years, although I think the real number is closer to 100).

There is still a reason for the Eastern Catholic Churches to exist -- they are in communion with Rome! As reunion occurs and the Orthodox and Catholic Churches reestablish communion with each other, then there will be no reason for the Eastern Catholic Churches that have Orthodox counterparts to exist (there is, for example, no Orthodox counterpart to the Maronite Church).

That is, I think, a telling reason for remaining Catholic. But, perhaps, you need to find a non-Latinized Eastern Catholic Church where you can "rediscover" your roots. There is nothing wrong with learning from the Orthodox, but breaking communion with Rome is a serious issue!

Edward, deacon and sinner

Serge,

I think you are correct. Thanks for the correction. Father Gilquist does seem to be Antiochian.

I noticed that they are sponsoring an Evangelism conference for next summer. I'm going to try to make arrangements to go.

Dan Lauffer

There is still a reason for the Eastern Catholic Churches to exist -- they are in communion with Rome! As reunion occurs and the Orthodox and Catholic Churches reestablish communion with each other, then there will be no reason for the Eastern Catholic Churches that have Orthodox counterparts to exist (there is, for example, no Orthodox counterpart to the Maronite Church).

That is, I think, a telling reason for remaining Catholic. But, perhaps, you need to find a non-Latinized Eastern Catholic Church where you can "rediscover" your roots. There is nothing wrong with learning from the Orthodox, but breaking communion with Rome is a serious issue

Dear Father Deacon Edward,

I agree with everything you write. I believe Joyce should find an Eastern Catholic Church such that would suit her needs. I believe Eastern Catholics can be everything the Orthodox are with the benefit of being in union with Rome.

I will pray for you Joyce. With such a sudden turn from initially wanting to switch from Byzantine rite to Roman rite to seeming to give up on the Catholic Church altogether, I believe you may not be sure where you belong. I somehwat understand your feelings. I have felt the same way in the past. Please continue to pray and discern over this decision before you take any further steps. God bless you.

In Christ,
Anthony

Dear Joyce,

I continue my prayer for you on your journey.

I concur with Anthony and Father Deacon Ed. There is a reason that the Byzantine Catholic Churches exist. The Pope has not said otherwise. He continues to stress their importance.

The rapid shifts in the choice of destination evident in your postings give reason to wonder if you are sure about where God wants you to be. Please don't undertake such a massive change without allowing yourself and the Spirit time to work.

Again, wherever you are led, you will be our sister in Christ. Take the time to listen as the Spirit speaks in your life. May your journey be a life enriching part of your life!

Steve
JOY!

[ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Inawe ]

I think the damage has been done by Rome to keep the Eastern Catholic Churches as they are and where they are. The Eastern Catholic Churches as everyone of us knows belonged to the Orthodox Church. It should not be any surprise as to why the Orthodox Church is having the dialogue primarily with Rome. The only viable solution to the split is for Rome and her Eastern communions to return to Orthodoxy. IMO, I see no hope for any reunion in this lifetime of ours. I still do not understand why Rome has not spoken an apology in regards to her deviation from Orthodoxy. She has apologized in general in regards to the harm she has inflicted upon people(i.e. Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Jewish Holacaust). An apology and a return to her righttful place in Orthodoxy is what is called for. Wouldn't it be nice to refer to the Roman Church as the Orthodox Church, first amongst equals?

Inawe,

There is a reason that the Byzantine Catholic Churches exist. The Pope has not said otherwise. He continues to stress their importance.

Your observation has got me thinking where we would go if the Pope suddenly decided that there was no longer a need for us. I suppose it would depend upon why there was no more need. (I know we've discussed this before). If we were reunited the answer would be simple. We would be the Eastern Branch or lung of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Nothing would change except we would no longer have a distinct heirarchy. If, however, and I don't expect that this will happen, we are put out of existence without a union I suspect that most of us would become Orthodox.

Dan Lauffer

For another view regarding the establishment of the Eastern Catholic Churches and the issue of asking forgiveness, please read this lecture by Fr Taft:

http://www.utoronto.ca/stmikes/theology/taft-kelly2000.htm

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

There is no way Rome is going to tell us to "get lost." They'd have to re-write the Catechism and deny the universal aspect of the Church. Let's face it: getting rid of us would not satisfy most Orthodox to achieve union. My guess it wouldn't achieve anything. We're just a convenient excuse to not have to dialogue right now. Union would still be way off if we didn't exist.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Huh?

Rum Orthodox:

You say: Tell that to the Melkites! We've been in dialog with the ORthodox for a long time. There is a joint project to build a common facility for study and research (worship, too!). The Melkites are among the leading Churches in dialog with the Orthodox.

And, of course, the Eastern Churches have been working hard to reestablish their roles in the Universal Church. It was the Melkite voices at Vatican I and Vatican II that have led to many of the changes in the attitude of Rome, and even in the Latin liturgy!

I find your statement to be, in general, out of touch with reality. It reflects, instead, a "party line" that seems to be diminishing among most Orthodox, but remains with Evangelicals who have converted to Orthodoxy.

Edward, deacon and sinner

FrDeaconEd,
I think you are not catching on and may be a little deceived. The Melkites can talk all day and all night but they cannot budge an inch without consulting Rome and with Romes approval when it centers on discussions on church reunion.
Talk is cheap. Everyone is aware of dialogues between the Melkites and the Orthodox but it is not going anywhere. As I said before, I predict no type of reunion in my lifetime. I am sorry that I do not have an Evangelical background to tell you the truth as is. The good news is I do see many Melkites becoming Orthodox and have met quite a few who have made the journey. They are certainly great people like yourself.