www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Mark of Shiva?

What was the Eastern reaction to the Holy Father having having the mark placed on his brow? Also, was there a reaction to the bare breasted women reading the Gospels at the same mass? (I'm not trying to start a fight, just wanted to know what the Eastern Catholics thought of it.)

Odo

Dear Odo,

Any pictures of this online?

Just so I can respond to your query more intelligently, of course . . .

Seriously, though, this was no "mark of Shiva" as I've read some truly ignorant people say.

This is the rite of Aarti, an Indian rite of greeting of the principal celebrant of a Mass and it was done to the Pope by a Catholic woman, not a Hindu woman - again hysteria caused by misinformation.

In India, this practice is done to Catholic children on the day of their First Communion and to Catholic married couples etc.

It is no more pagan than decorating a Christmas Tree.

Again, we should check our facts before condemning His Holiness during events that have to be with inculturation of the Gospel message and the Church.

The bare-breasted thing is also nonsense.

The traditionalists who attacked the Pope over that - do they also think that Michaelangelo's frescoes in the Vatican should be destroyed because they depict nude breasts of women?

What outrageous phariseeism!

Alex

A picture can be seen here...

http://www.cephasministry.com/cath_smoke_of_satan_pope.html

Odo,

I'm still trying to get over the fact that Jesus, our Lord, ate with tax collectors, sinners, and prostitutes and considered Roman centurions to have more faith than all of Israel. What really got me was that woman "of the city," who was a sinner, anointing Jesus with kisses and her hair! Judas, according to John, must have been on the right track, huh? And the fact that a pagan Roman soldier called Jesus innocent while he was still hanging on the cross!!! What did he know about theological and religious correctness? And what do you think of those Scribes and Pharisees?

"It is no more pagan than decorating a Christmas Tree."

Alex,

You mean ... you mean .... you mean that Christmas trees were originally PAGAN?

The tax collector suffered from public condemnation, not the condemnation of God. The prostitutes was performing fornication....Our Lord did not participate in either acts, fornication or publicly condemning a tax collector, the Pope participated in the act of �be signed with a pagan sign�as if it was equal to the truth of Faith. I wasn�t asking for general opinions, I was inquiring into what the Eastern Rite Bishop thought of it. Or they thought anything at all on the subject.

Heck, I just want to see the pictures. I don't care much about the diatribe.

Dan L

Just a lot of hysteria and ignorance of other cultures.

CIX!

Odo, you're being silly. There's nothing to react to - it's not a pagan thing. It is merely cultural - I'm sure our friend Mor Ephrem can tell you as much. Where's he when we need him???

Just my two obols,

Edward

Since when is Shiva the death spinner (as he is called in India) just a culture thing? A culture of death thing more like it. Why is it Catholics always try to smooth over something the Pope did even when it is in contrast to Traditional Catholic teaching? The sign of the cross is not a culture thing but we do that as well, it's a Christian thing, just as the mark of Shiva is a pagan thing.

Odo,

You have not demonstrated that this was "the mark of Siva". Why go off on this when you don't know? I've no fear of questions or even of criticism when it's deserved but show us the proof.

Dan L

This crud has been dealt with in the past here and in other places. It is a sad joke and I do not think this is the place to talk about it as the facts are hard to find.

As for the picture, it is obviously doctored or the Holy Father and this woman are able to float in the air and are doing so in front of a brown wall.

Alex said it best,

Odo said, "I'm not trying to start a fight" but then goes on fighting and ignores Alex's comment about this not being the "Mark of Shiva" but something of the culture.

No matter what the answer is, there are those that will find fault even if there is no fault to be found.

David

ps it appears that this web site where the picture is found is of an anti-catholic protestant ministry. So my quesiton to Odo is, what is the adgenda of the group that has posted an edited picture?

Dear Odo,

You may choose to think what you wish.

But I think we are all agreed here that you should check your facts before spreading misinformation or imputing false motive to the Pope.

You might begin by studying some of the pagan traditions that Western Christians have adopted and which we today accept without question.

The cross, since you mentioned it, was truly venerated in antiquity. In the British Museum, you will see giant statues of Assyrian kings circa 3,000 BC, all of whom wear neck crosses JUST LIKE we do today!

Again, that woman in the picture is a Catholic woman and that is a cultural, not religious, practice.

Pope Pius XII approved the Chinese and Indian Rites in 1954.

That tradition you decry as the Mark of Shiva has the approval not of Pope John Paul II, but of Pope Pius XII!

I ask the Administrator to review this matter as it is a matter of serious misinformation and Odo seems to be hell-bent on promoting it nomatter what anyone has to say.

It is offensive to His Holiness as Odo seems to be agreeing with those who attack him for a practice that is part of the Indian and Chinese Rites approved by his predecessor, Pope Pius XII.

Are you saying that Pope Pius XII was wrong to do that?

Alex

Dear Cantor Joe,

Yes, and our friends, the Serbians, still maintain the original tradition in this regard.

While they do have Christmas trees, they have the "Banyak" or a piece of Oak log, decorated with candies and what-not that is brought to Church and blessed by the Priest. It is later hung on the wall at home at the Feast of the Nativity with the Tree - the difference being that the Banyak stays on the wall all year long.

The tradition of mistletoe is interesting. The Celts believed that it was so holy that one had to hug in its presence to prove there was no desecrating hatred between people etc. Thus, the "kissing under the mistletoe" tradition.

The pagan Celts used liturgical gloves to pick up the sacred mistletoe.

To this day, the Dean of the Anglican Cathedral of York, following in the footsteps of his Catholic ancestors, dons liturgical gloves and brings a great bunch of mistletoe into the Cathedral that is placed on a side altar during the Feast of the Nativity.

One other tradition is that derived from ancient Judaism.

Christ, in John Chapter 3, says that "Just as Moses raised the serpent in the desert, so too must the Son of Man be lifted up . . ."

As a result, Slavic iconographers made icons and crosses in bronze or brass, in imitation of the serpent in the desert and its connection with Christ's Words.

Many Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Christians not only wore brass Crosses (they are popular in Ethiopia), but also small brass snakes with them!

Alex

Odo:

Your inital post is a great example of "begging the question". You ask about the reaction to certain events - such as receiving a pagan sign as if it were equal to the Truth of Faith - with the implicit presupposition that the events, as you describe them, actually occured.

A less flammable starting point for this discussion, IMO, would be to ask whether these events actually happened, and if the interpretations attached to them were correct.

Your tendentious misinterpretation of the "Mark of Shiva event" has been detailed by others. As to the bare-breasted epistle reader, I haven't had much time to investigate, but the facts attached to this event vary so much from one site to the other that the reliability of the description, or for that matter the authenticity of the photo, is not clear. The significance of this event, moreover, is totally unclear to me. But I saw the photo on a site that also showed "incriminating" photos of the Pope meeting with the Trilateral Commission, and even with members of B'nai B'rith.