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Bill from Pgh Member
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Dear Carole,
I was checking out the "Come and See" site and really like it. For on my walls, I prefer icons that look new, rather than old or antiqued; just a personal preference. The list of iconographers comes with short biographies, so there is no question as to their source.
Cool site! I've seen the site before, but thought they only took orders for commisioned work, which is more costly, but worth it if you can squeeze it into your budget.
Bill
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I don't know what this "Sacred Arts Foundation" is, or what it means that they have acquired Monastery Icons. The term "Gnostic Orthodox" never appeared on the Monastery Icons site; they always laid low about that [a sound business decision, no doubt]. Those more skilled at poking around on the internet than I may be able to document more of this. As for signing icons, as far as I know outside of Crete this is a modern innovation. It is certainly not part of the Russian tradition that I was trained in. I really don't understand the compulsion to stick your name on an icon, even if "humbly" signing "by the hand of..."
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Actually if you do a search for "abbot george burke gnostic orthodox" you can probably find excerpts of his autobiography [note the one that starts out "I have always been an idolater" or something like that].
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If you do that search [I am too technologically inept to provide a link] and you go to the Kali Mandir site with the "abbot's" testimony of his experience with the goddess of death, note that the page has a Monastery Icon version of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, along with photos of Kali idols. Probably that means that the "iconographer" of Abbot George's monastery, Simeon, considers Mary and Kali to be the same, both archetypes of the divine mother. I find that troubling...
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Originally posted by iconophile: If you do that search [I am too technologically inept to provide a link] and you go to the Kali Mandir site with the "abbot's" testimony of his experience with the goddess of death, note that the page has a Monastery Icon version of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, along with photos of Kali idols. Probably that means that the "iconographer" of Abbot George's monastery, Simeon, considers Mary and Kali to be the same, both archetypes of the divine mother. I find that troubling... this is the link that Iconophile indicates - having found it and looked - frankly I am horrified referenced page [ kalimandir.org] Anhelyna
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 25
used to be
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Stop blindly vilifying organizations/people/businesses you don't know anything about, or "heard" about from dubious sources. Back up you allegations with "credible" evidence of their (Monastery Icons) apostasy.
Listen, we made a pagan feast of the Sun God; Christmas. We made Easter (Feast of Estre), another pagan feast, the glorious Resurrection. Monastery Icons should be an easy one. I have a Three Barred Cross "made in China." Should I throw it away because Chinese are pagans? Get real and logical for a change.
Just have your priest sprinkle holy water on their supposedly, allegedly "sinful work", and there you have it: a Holy Icon!
Just my view from the third pew.
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John Member
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John Member
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thirdpew raises an interesting point. When I was in high school one of the local priests wanted a six foot Nativity of Our Lord icon to display in front of the church at Christmas. Someone suggested that he send a copy of a Nativity icon over to Korea to be copied. When it arrived it was a perfect copy. But it wasn�t holy. It wasn�t an icon. Everyone saw it at once.
There are differences between photographic reproductions, hand-painted icons by Christian iconographers, and copies by non-believers. IMHO the photographic reproductions can capture the holiness of the icon, while the painted copy by a non-believer cannot.
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I see what some of you are saying - but I have yet to see anything that definitively links the company "Monastery Icons" to either the "Bridge Building" or this "abbot" George Burke person.
In fact everything that has been pointed to as "proof" of the apostasy of Monastery Icons has made no mention of the company. The company itself makes no mention of these people.
While I will search, with caution, for icons that speak to both my husband and I - I believe this thread has very likely out lived it usefullness and it is rapidly deteriorating into blind speculation without fact.
Thank you all for your suggestions and comments.
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Again, I lack the skill to supply a link, but if you do a search for "abbot george burke" you will find numerous references to him, talking here about reincarnation, there publishing vegetarian recipes. He is clearly identified as the abbot of Light of Christ Monastery, the "monastery" of "Monastery Icons". If you go to the page that Angela supplied at the bottom is a photo of the community in front of the idol of Kali. Third Pew- did you read his account of his opening his soul to the goddess of death? Isn't this enough? And I never said all this means that their icons are not capable of being blessed; to me the blessing of the Church covers a multitude of sins. If it didn't my own icons would be worthless. I simply encourage believers not to spend their money on unorthodox iconographers. And Carole- Bridgebuilding Icons is not connected to Monastery Icons. They are connected to Robert Lentz, currently a Franciscan, a guy with his own theological problems...
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Apparently Abbot Burke and his community no longer identify themselves as Gnostic Orthodox. In their most recent incarnation they call themselves "Coptic Orthodox". They are not listed by any Coptic Orthodox site as a Coptic monastery, however, and are, it seems, not in communion with any Coptic bishop. Abbot Burke has, however, been consecrated by various vigante bishops...
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My posting time is somewhat limited right this second, so I'm going to have to return later, but I want to make a couple of quick points. Thirdpew, Monastery Icons and the rather dubious theology and ecclesiastical patrimony of its founder and the associated monastery are well-established. If anyone wants background on that beyond what has been said, I'll dig it out and post it. Whatever our faults here, and I have been as quick as anyone to criticize us, collectively and individually, forum members as a whole are not in the habit of "blindly vilifying" or basing assertions on "dubious sources". For better or worse, Daniel and I are both students of the vagante scene and I think we, in particular, are very careful in identifying anyone to be of that ilk. I note that Sacred Arts is situated in VT, which has recently become a locus of vagante activity, particularly that which is melding holistic healing with sects that claim lineage from or strive to imitate the theological tenets and liturgical praxis of various of the Oriental Churches, sometimes combining two or more into a particularly unusual presentation (the Nasrani Patriarchate of Jerusalem, whose Abuna Qasha - Ecumenical Apostolic Ambassador Vice-Patriarch is headquartered there [ mishqana.org] , comes immediately to mind.) In this respect, the resulting ecclesia most resemble Wadle and Spruit-type churches, for those familiar with the historical players. That doesn't mean to say that Sacred Arts is affiliated with any such, as I haven't yet searched out any specific info on them, but the question remains open for the moment. Daniel, You mentioned that Abbott George is now asserting a "Coptic" identity, which I hadn't heard. Do you have a link with which I can work? Carole, The issue with regard to purchasing iconography from dubious sources is not that one can't "make holy" the unholy through blessings and prayer, as thirdpew has suggested. It is that legitimate monastic foundations, which often struggle to survive, offer work of as much beauty and which was written in an atmosphere of holiness. Additionally, there are the wonderfully blessed and talented individual iconographers, such as Ray Mastroberte, father of Dave/Chthec here, who see each icon they write as an opportunity to give those who will pray before it a window into heaven. Spending money on the purchase of icons from those whose mission is of unclear and possibly harmful theological bent and, thereby supporting them, is the issue that raises folks' hackles. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Hello everyone,
I haven't been following his thread until recently, but the amount that I have read is enlightening. "Building Bridges" or "Sacred Images or Arts" has a nasty reputation at least among Orthodox Christians. They have taken people that are not Christian and have turned them into iconographic representations, that often are confusing to Christian believers as saints of the Church.
The other "Monastery Icons" has interesting subjects, but from my theological training they do not follow the canon rules for iconography. This is apparently evident in their depictions of our Lord. In the nimbus/halo they omit they lettering which stands for "I AM". Most Orthodox have differing views about their icons, from acceptance to outright disdain for them. I kind of hold a middle road on their icons. They do have some icons that I have not been able to find commercially elsewhere. As far Abbot Burke and Monastery Icons being under the Coptic Orthodox Church, that is news to me. I know they have abandoned their previous gnostic affliation, but the rumor in the Orthodox Church is that they had been accepted under the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe that would explain many of the icons depicting western devotionals, i.e. Stations of the Cross, Sacred Heart, etc. All of this is hard to confirm. I know they where highlighted on some national news program a few years back, but of course it was aired on a Sunday morning when any viewing would have been a problem for me.
I agree with most forum members that obtaining an icon from someone who has followed the rules of writing/painting an icon such as Chtech or his father (we have several) by involving prayer and study, leads to an aid that fosters prayer and brings the person closer to God. The question for an individual or even sometimes a parish is the cost. I have many hand-painted icons in our chapel. All of them bring us closer to prayer. But there also reproductions we have, and they serve in the same capacity.
As time has gone by, it is important to have an icon that will help the person spiritually as and aid to prayer as well as drawing them closer to God. For those that are selling or distributing them for shear commercial purposes, I believe they will have to answer for it eventually.
I will be following this thread and its future posts. I would be interested in seeing what the outcome of some of the information reported leads to. As I prepare to enter the Great Fast, I find that prayer is all too important at this Holy time.
Wishing all a Holy Lent (Fast)!
In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Dear Father Anthony,
Bless, Father!
I also wish you a most holy and grace filled Lent!
May our Lord God sustain us in our struggles at this time!
Kissing your right hand, Alice
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Neal- I'm not sure where I got that; I have been poking around on the internet trying to find information about them, which is remarkably difficult, given the high profile of Monastery Icons. They seem to have flown under the radar of IndMovement.org, which is otherwise pretty encyclopedic. Perhaps Fr Anthony is right, and they have found a home in Roman Catholicism, but it would be a naive bishop indeed who would take them in. If they have truly denounced their errors and sought union with a canonical Church I would like to see this documented; I will be the first to apologize if what I have written about them is no longer accurate. I would think that Abbot Burke should also seek exorcism, after the experience with the Dark Goddess that he recounts; truly chilling. I have much sympathy for expressions of spirituality, even those that are mixed with error, but how anyone could not discern the utterly demonic nature of Kali worship is beyond me. -Daniel
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The "Sacred Arts Foundation" is just a reincarnation :p of Monastery Icons. Typing "Sacred Arts Foundation" into Google brings up the following page: http://www.nonprofitdata.com/organization-details.phtml?cmd=300149834 This address is given: SACRED ARTS FOUNDATION 1482 RANGO WAY BORREGO SPGS, CA 92004-4200 The P.O. Box in Ohio on the Monastery Icons website is just a mailing address. I am guessing this is done to put distance between their highly profitable business and their Christian-Hindu fusion ashram/monastery, an idea that may not be attractive to their generally Roman Catholic and, to a lesser extent, Orthodox Christian target market. Dave
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