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Question for all you wise BC's out there:

I have noticed in the Roman Catholic liturgy, it appears they have changed the wording at the end of the Our Father. Instead of praying: "Deliver us from the evil one"....it is now "Deliver us from evil". Is this not downplaying the reality of Satan? Would you say this is a prime example of Modernism that has "crept" into the RC liturgy?
Has this occurred anywhere in Byzantine churches/liturgy that you are aware of?

Appreciate any responses,
+ Volodymyr

The official translation of the Divine Liturgy in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Metropolia, the English wording has always been "deliver us from evil, Amen.."

U-C

The same for the Latin liturgy in English speaking countries...since the time of Henry VIII. Don

dear Volodymyr:

The "older" version is "and deliver us from evil". That is e.g. the wording in the King James Bible as well as the wording in the Book of Common Prayer (whence we get the standard Our Father that we have learned in school {cf. the "trespasses" translation}) which I think comes from the Coverdale Bible translation.

So, no modernist plot here, sorry.

But you are correct in that "deliver us from the Evil One" is the more correct translation. E.g. the "lead us not into Temptation" refers actually to the Great Trial/Tribulation where Satan tempts even the "Saints" to lose their souls, and one is here praying that one be delivered from the Evil One's machinations in this situation and persevere until the End.

"Temptation" here does not refer to the temptation of taking that 3rd helping of cheese cake - which maybe explains a lot [about me anyways...]

Herb

The words of the Lord's prayer in our liturgy in the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America is exactly the same as the RC version.

Well, frankly I don't see so much modernism there (and look Im a medievalist )

There are many changes that are much more dangerous than that one (if we can call it change, I doubt it is), the modern translations of the Creed in the RC are very harmful. I also think that most if the time it is the priest the one who makes changes and inclusive language (not the texts, this is very common in the RC in my country, where the correct translations approved by Rome, are often left aside).

I can also assure that in the Orthodox Liturgy in Mexico, the translation is: "y l�branos del mal" (deliver us from evil). The "deliver us from the evil one" has no possible translation in Spanish.

U-C,

The liturgical use of the "Our Father" has no "amen" after the petition, "deliver us from evil". The "amen" occurs after the doxology.

Actually, I was made aware of the "deliver us from the evil one" from a book written by Jim Forest titled: PRAYING WIHT ICONS published by Maryknoll Publishing. At the end of the book, there is a listing of daily Orthodox prayers, a Small Compline, and a Litany of Peace. I was under the impression that was a standard Orthodox way of praying it...sorry.

+ Peace,
V

dear V:

Would that it were, but alas, it is not...

For example, the OCA liturgy book, uses the standard phrase. Maybe some jurisdictions do, but it is unfortunately "universally Orthodox" by any means.

Herb

volodymyr:

The English translation of the Lord's Prayer that we use comes from the Latin. Since the Latin Church sent missionaries to evangelize England, that would only be normal.

I have studied Latin formally and compared it with the translation that we all use. It has always seemed odd to me that we would ask God "to lead us not into temptation" as if He would or could do such a thing.

I have come to a spot in the Latin that might shed some light on this. The Latin says "et ne nos inducas" which has been translated as "and lead us not." That is a kind of literal translation.

But there may be a very obscure point of Latin grammar present here. There is in Latin grammar an "ut ne" and sometimes an "et ne" followed by the particular verb form found here that could be translated as "and in order that we may not be lead into temption" (deliver us from the Evil One). I have grappled with this bit of obscure grammar for a long time and believe that it may be this point that renders this last phrase or two a bit obscure in English. I have, however, not been able to find someone with more Latin experience to confirm this theory for me.

Additionally, Latin does not have the definite article "the" included. It gets placed there from our English usage. Inclusion of the word "one" is also another place word in English that is not formally placed into the Latin text, but can be understood to be there. In some Latin, "malus" is just generic evil, but when it is capitalized, as it is in some Church documents, it definitely refers to the "Evil (One)."

I have no experience in the Greek or other languages that this prayer has come to us. Perhaps these languages can help us in this regard. The Latin text came to us from a translation of the Greek. How does Armenian, Syriac, Coptic, and Greek compare?

BOB

Here's some data on the "lead us not into temptation" phrase:

Temptation: [periasmon] It is a mistake to define this word as only a solicitation to evil. It means "trial" of any kind, without reference to its mortal quality. Thus, in Gen. 22:1 "God did tempt Abraham." As we know, God is not tempted by evil nor does he tempt any man, so we cannot pray that God not tempt us.

CHRISTteen287

Dear Friends,

Yes, "from the evil one" is the correct translation, especially since "evil" in contemporary parlance can be interpreted in general, watered-down terms.

In addition, the beginning should be "Who art in the heavens" (plural). The later "as it is in heaven" is the singular.

The plural of "heavens" in the Greek tradition means "everywhere" and not just in Heaven itself.

I find great spiritual consolation in meditating on this during my recitation of the Our Father.

Alex

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

One of my favorite meditations on the Our Father is the one in Vol 2 of the Philokalia (Faber and Faber, London) by St. Maximos the Confessor.

I have found it very profound and thought you might like to use it too.

BOB