www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Proposed Text of the Byzantine Liturgy

Thank you, Baba.

"OK have fun and argue but sometimes it looks like "I'm smarter then you are" ,maybe it's guy thing. The women here on the board don't that. It goes against who we are. While arguing is going on nothing gets done."


No. Arguing is not just a guy thing. Many on this board are active in their parishes as catechists, deacons, cantors and the like. They also have wives who are their best critics. You don't think my wife doesn't have an ear or can't tell when something is goofy? :p I teach adult education once in awhile and the most challenging questions come from women. So, your statement that implies that women are passive is far from my experience.

Many times, those who stand out in the community because they serve it in various ministries (and are easy targets) are approached by the laity with questions, complaints, and concerns. We have intelligent people in our communities and they ask thought-provoking questions that sometimes put us in the back seat of theological discussions. There are many living icons who attend religious education and drive the conversations into depths unknown. Those of us who may seem to you to be arguing for arguments sake have to come to deal with that which is going on around us in our communities only because we can't afford to put our heads in the sand. We don't take changes lightly because the people don't take them lightly.

There were times when I taught adults and the women took control of the topic and conversation and I just took a back seat to listen ... and learn. There are more Orthodox women theologians out there than one may think and they are not below responding with great energy and spirit. My wife sings in our parish schola ... just a few feet from the cantor's stand. I can't go too far off from the beaten path without reprimand. I learned two things early in marriage: never say anything stupid when the wife is giving birth (they may grab you with their long fingernails and draw blood - and remember what you said i vo viki vikov) or do something stupid while cantoring. The ride back home can become very long, indeed.

Women are just better in picking the right time to argue. And the argument is usually pretty good.

Joe

J. Thur,

Exactly, We pick the right time. Monk Elias said he has until August 1 to review the changes. Most of the folks here seem to be concerned about the changes. That they are not for the good. While folks are arguing and/or should I say showing how well versed they are on the subject of the Liturgy, time to actually do something about it is slipping away. This will affect the lay people as you alluded to but for the most part the Clergy (who are men)are in the position do something. If women were Clergy (no I don't think women should be allowed into the Priesthood) and we thought these changes were not good changes to the Liturgy they would never come to pass. We would know time is of the essence we need to unite & act now we can always argue and have deep discussion at another time. The Ointment Bearers prove this, they didn't argue about who knows the most about salves & balms they united together went to the tomb to get the job done. 2 Women on the board come to mind as I type this. Sharon & Rose most of their responses tell of how they fell about issues(and they are versed on what they speak about) or for the most part offering information to those who ask and prayers too. We (women) do when necessary ,we say when the time is right as you have stated in your thread. I did not mean to imply that women are passive. I'm a woman for cryin out loud! and one of my husbands pet nick names for me is Relentless.

Nicky's Baba

Father Doctor Deacon John,

Just a thought - the way to ensure that folk hear more scripture is not to implement a 3 year lectionary. Instead, restore Vespers & Matins ("Matins Lite" for parish use, LOL) in our parishes. People will hear more scripture - and have the opportunity to experience more of our liturgical heritage.

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

"Just a thought - the way to ensure that folk hear more scripture is not to implement a 3 year lectionary. Instead, restore Vespers & Matins ("Matins Lite" for parish use, LOL) in our parishes. People will hear more scripture - and have the opportunity to experience more of our liturgical heritage."

Amen. Why not fix what is broke, instead of reinventing it, there by throwing out 17 centuries of tradition?

I strongly agree with Sharon and Adam about the restoration of the Divine Services, most especially Vespers and Matins.

I have been following this thread and the numerous related ones due to my interest in liturgy and liturgics. While I admire the passion with which everybody is presenting their case so to speak, I sometimes think, "Oh, geez, IT'S JUST ONE litany/prayer/antiphon verse/rubric... so what, big deal, get over it!" I can't help but think that these proposed changes probably would not seem as drastic if they were accompanied by a call to restore Vespers and Matins (to prominence) in parish life.

This restoration, in my estimation, needs to happen among most Orthodox and Greek Catholic churches in America. To accomplish this, I have always thought there needs to be education and some sort of typikon to meet these needs. Sharon's MatinsLite is perfect, so maybe TypikonLite� or UstavLite� could be on somebody's agenda. For example, most annual published typika which I have seen give the rubrics for a particular Sunday or Feast according to the received order (which can be intimidating even for the liturgically seasoned). Why not give the received ("advanced") order, and then an "elementary" and a "intermediate" order for those with less experience or capabilities, along with advice in practical application? Face it, clergy abbreviate (even among Orthodox... gasps abound in the audience) and will continue to abbreviate (often with little sense to the abbreviation), so why not give a little guidance in the matter?

I recently read an article about the reforms of one whom I greatly admire, Saint Peter Mohila. The good metropolitan made many reforms and changes in his liturgical books. He borrowed freely from Greek, Slavonic and even Latin sources. Yet, his reforms did not cause a schism as Nikon's reforms did in the Russian Church. Why? Peter not only made liturgical reforms, but raised the whole standard for his flock; education, medicine, monastic life, parish life and liturgy were all improved. Perhaps his example would be one to reflect upon.

Dave

Wow, three years later and this matter is still being questioned. Too bad the Pittsburgh Metropolia doesn't have a real "Sobor", including
parish council representatives. Maybe a "Sobor" would have been a more "orthodox" thing to do.

Ungcsertezs

That's one way to look at it. Another would be to note

(1) It's been delayed almost three years, during which the texts have been used at Otpust, the cathedral and seminary, etc. - a delay which was requested by several posters, and during which time anyone who wanted could contact our hierarchs.

(2) There were suggestions in the thread (by the Administrator, I believe) that the posted text was not the actual one being proposed - and a reply that in fact it was assembled from various sources. So using this thread as "the proposed liturgy" in 2005 would be quite a stretch.

Yours in Christ,

Jeff Mierzejewski

I have to agree with you there. Some of the readings are like "Ogg begat Yigg who begat Ugg." As Michael Davies said, "who cares?" In the old days, the readings reinforced the theme of the day. Now the readings are so unrelated to anything that they are quickly forgotten, if not ignored by the congregation in the first place. It seems clear to me that the goal was to read the Bible in 3 years, not to support the liturgy with appropriate readings.

As if laypersons had any say in the matter?

Ungcsertezs

As you know, in Catholic churches (Latin and Eastern) we tend to vote with our feet and our wallets. We do that, I am sure, because it's the only vote we get. I haven't seen the revised Liturgy, so I can't speak to what's in it. However, it seems to me that it will either restore authentic texts to the Divine Liturgy and make it a better worship experience for the laity, or it will increase the numbers in nearby Orthodox Churches. I suppose I will just have to wait and see how that turns out.

It's a high stakes game, and quite a gamble. And the Archbishop is very bold to take it.

Part of it depends (I admit) on how good a leader he is, and how good a salesman he can be, convincing his Church that this is the right thing to do, and that this is the priority they must face, and the pill they must swallow.

Well, I think we do have something to say. Maybe no one will listen, but I think we should say it anyway.

I do not believe laypersons concerns are ever taken seriously. In the end, the heirarchy does what it wants and the people lose out.

Ungcsertezs

Only one observation at present - the text posted by Deacon Lance, assembled from different events, does have many variations from the text that was submitted, reviewed and then subsequently revised. The final form will modify many of the comments made in this thread.
I am rather uncertain about Fr. Elias' suggestion that "vladyko" refers to God the Father. In ordinary life, if you are in Slav territory, the bishop is consistently called, "vladyko." Thus, "Vladyko, would you like a sandwich for lunch?" I don't think this more mystic approach is needed here. In very polite anglophone society, a young boy child, not yet a man, is called "Master." "Despota" is not the most common title for God in Scripture, "kurios" is much more common, but then the bishop is often addressed as "kurios" also, but not in the opening blessing. I do think this opening, "Master, give the blessing" derives from the practice where the bishop is the normative celebrant of the Liturgy, but I cannot prove this.

Fr. Dave