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During the Divine Liturgy coverage by EWTN on the Pope's visit to the Ukraine. The commetary was given by a Ukraine priest. While the Byzantine Divine Liturgy was taking place the priest was asking for prayers for the Metropolitan (forgive me if I get this wrong). The priest ask for prayers for the Pope and the "Holy Fathers" as to not cause problems because the commentary for EWTN said that the Ukraines feel there Metropolitan should be a Patriach. Further, he said the Vatican had not ruled on this issue yet. Am I understanding this correctly? If so could someone please explain this issue to me.

Saint Helena Please Pray For Us!
Ray S.

I think the perspective is this: since Sts. Cyril and Methodius did their missionary work moving northwards from the Balkans, they first reached the area of what is now known as Slovakia and Ukraine. The major focal area was the region of Kiev and the baptism of St. Vladimir and St. Olga. Kiev became a center of Christian life. After the (much later) subjugation of the Ukrainian lands to the Princes of Muscovy, the secular focus moved northwestwards, away from Kiev to Moscow. Through political machinations in the late 14th through 16th centuries, Moscow got named a Patriarchate, and since Constantinople was still under the heel of the Ottoman Empire, Moscow started calling itself the 'third Rome' or 'new Rome'. They had the money; they had a secular government that was cooperative.

Except for a brief period at the beginning of the 20th century, Ukraine was under Russian domination. Now that the Ukrainian people are free, with their own government, they are beginning to come to the realization: "We was robbed!!" It was certainly an astute political ploy of the Russians to encourage factionalization among Ukrainian Christians: Catholic vs. Orthodox, etc. since it deflected criticism away from the Muscovite patriarchal (and political) hegemony in the nation.

Although nationalism is a very dangerous bedfellow for Christian communities, in this case it may very well lead to greater Christian unity. Lord knows, Ukrainian Christians have suffered immensely over the last century and I think they deserve both our prayers and support for a time of peace and prosperity.

Blessings!

It should be noted that the two largest Ukrainian Orthodox autocephalous groups have agreed to submit their differences to a commission of the Ecumenical Patriarchate chaired by Archbishop Vsevolod of Scopelos, head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-USA(EP). The result of these negotiations should be the emergence of a single, unified Ukrainian Orthodox Church independent from the Autonomous Metropolitanate of Kiev maintained by the Moscow Patriarchate. Once unity of the autocephalous groups is achieved, it seems likely that support for the Moscow Patriarchate will evaporate (except among die-hard Russophiles), and that a unified Ukrainian Church independent of Moscow will become a fait accompli.

Dear RCGuy,

I worked in the movement for a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate some years back, distributing literature etc.

It has all been a very frustrating experience, especially when one sees Byzantine Catholic Churches much smaller than the Ukrainian Catholic one with their Patriarchates.

The Metropolitan of KYIV (please note the correct spelling ) wore the robes of a Patriarch and his authority was very Patriarchal.

Kyiv will be a recognized, canonical Patriarchate one day. If Moscow knew how to make friends and influence people, it would have helped set one up there now.

Moscow, as Dr. John said, is in fact a daughter of Kyiv and it was its reliance on the Kyivan tradition of St Andrew etc. that allowed it to go ahead with its own Patriarchate etc.

The other side of the coin is the Greek Catholics.

Do we have the right to a Patriarchate? The thing is, it was the Orthodox Metropolitan of Kyiv who signed the Union of Brest-Litovsk.

This and other factors mean that the Ukrainian Catholic Church has as much right as any other Church to a Patriarchate.

Certainly, Patriarch Josef Slipyj declared one for his Church and the succeeding leaders have been called "Patriarch" since.

Vatican II and the Decree on the Eastern Churches encouraged the establishment of Patriarchates as part of the heritage of the Eastern Churches.

There used to be an argument against this by certain Roman theologians (who didn't want to upset Moscow) saying that Kyiv never was a Patriarchate.

Well, neither was Moscow or other Churches who eventually won recognition as such from the Orthodox world.

But Rome did do an investigation into the role and status of the Metropolitan of the Ukrainian Catholic Church and came to the conclusion that this Church was always run as a Major Archbishopric whose status is equal to that of a Patriarchate.

So Patriarch Lubomyr, although not recognized by Rome as such, is a Major Archbishop with powers equal to that of a Patriarch.

But if it walks like a Patriarch, talks like a Patriarch and has the status of a Patriarch, then it must be a Patriarch!

Alex

p.s. "the Ukraines?" "Ukrainians" is just fine. Perhaps you were thinking of "Frasier Ukraine?"

Remember the Ukes are the largest Eastern Catholic Church and they and their Orthodox counterparts like the Pope. We are your friends and allies!

Dear Stuart,

Amin! Amin!

As one Cardinal said when told about the unhappiness of the Russians with the papal visit, "We're here to meet the Ukrainians, not the Russians!"

Alex

Dear Orthodox Catholic,

Frasier Ukraine? Is he related to Frasier Crane?

I'm rolling on the floor laughing out loud [ROFLOL].

Dear Michael,

Yes, I thought this wouldn't be too much of a stretch since I saw that episode of Frasier's Greek nephew.

Greeks, Ukrainians - they all go wild when they hear music!

Alex

Not to nit-pick, but, KYIV was first an eparchy and then raised to an Metropolia by the Patriarch of Constantinople. It was never subject to Moscow. The Metropolia united with Rome. When Russian imperaial control was establihsed over eastern and central Ukraine, an Orthodox metropolia was created subject to Moscow. The Russians never had civil jurisdiction over western Ukraine until 1945. After WWII, the Pope raised the Ukrainian metropolia to a major Archbishopric.

Dear Olga,

And what can I get you for your Nameday of St Olga of Kyiv?

Alex

It is good to keep in mind that Patriarch JOSEF Cardinal Slipyj of Blessed Memory declared himself Patriarch, not Rome or Pope Paul VI.

Although Rome did not like it, they did not overrule it; they just tended to ignore it.

The situation is political and complicated and probibly difficult for RCGuy to understand at a first glance.

After Patriarch JOSEF Cardinal Slipyj died in 1984, the next major-archbishop of L'viv was MYROSLAV-IVAN Cardinal Lubachevsky who just died in December 2000.

Cardinal Lubachevksy did not refer to himself as Patriarch, although some clergy did until he established that he wanted to be refered to as Major-Archbishop.

Now with LUBOMYR Cardinal Husar, current major-archbishop we are using the term "patriarch" (for the time being?), at parish liturgies, although not everyone in the Ukrainian Catholic Church like it. Some Bishops are waiting for Rome to make a pronouncement about it, or Cardinal LUBOMYR himself, as Patriarch JOSEF did. It is not altogether clear what LUBOMYR thinks about this. Some bishops will not invoke the term "patriarch" even if it is in essance the same as "major-archbishop".

It boils down to this. POWER. During the Second Vatican Council, greater autonomy was mandated for the Eastern Chruches. When it comes down to actually sharing the power though, some feel that Rome is very slow in relinquishing it.

Hope this makes things a little more clear.

Friends, help me out if I have mis-stated anything.

(BTW the priest-commentator on EWTN is Father Peter Galadza of the Sheptytsky Institute in Ottawa. He is a wonderful priest who has helped me much in many ways. If anyone has a chance to see him in person, you will not be disappointed.)

With Best Wishes to All!
Stefan-Ivan

(Maybe I should have said we just like hyphons instead of using one word?)

Dear Stefan-Ivan,

I think you've said it like it is.

Yes, Fr. Peter Galadza is a very nice priest and my cousin could not have chosen a better husband for herself

His brother is the parish priest at St Elias' where our Fr. Protodeacon Kennedy serves as well.

Our Orthodox friend Brendan made a comment to the effect that we love to hate the Moscow Patriarchate.

I hope that isn't true, and I believe it is not.

As a matter of fact, who is even thinking about the Moscow Patriarchate during the papal visit?

Love y'a Brendan, just love y'a!

Alex

I'm reluctant to address this (I know that I am a guest and wish to act accordingly), but some of the Orthodox Church information is very out of context. First, Archbishop Vsevelod is NOT the Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA (EP), Metropolitan Constantine is. Secondly (and most importantly) regardless of who does the negotiating on behalf of the EP in Ukraine, they are in FULL COMMUNION with the MP (and its autocephalous counterpart in North A, the OCA). Thus, should the two jurisdictions in Ukraine unite with the assistance of the EP, it would be in FULL COMMUNION with the Autonomous Church (MP) under Metroplitan Volodymyr. This intervention by the EP is controversal among North A Orthodox (but I personally regard it as a good thing as long as it is temporary). Despite what is being said, the vast majority of UKRAINIAN believers belong to the Autonomous Church (and this includes virtually the entire East Bank). There are about 5 to 6 million Greek Catholics in Ukraine, these two groups non-Canonical Orthodox groups may not combined equal that, and when you add the Protestants, RCs, Muslims and Jews you get at the very most 20 million souls (and that is being very generous). If Ukraine has 50 million citizens, one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist ( I'm not, my Uncle is) to figure out that the Automonous Church (MP) under Met. Voldoymyr isn't chopped liver. Yes, the MP resents this EP move, but regardless, Met. Volodymyr would be first among equals with Archbishop Vsevelod (or whoever), nothing else to the tens of millions of Ukrainian Orthodox Christians would be credible. Once this is resolved, Ukrainian Orthodox will be no more divideable than OCA members in NA are from EP Ukrainians or EP Carpatho-Rusyns (under Met. Nicholas). We may have our inter-jurisdictional problems (Kyrie Eleison!), but we are one Faith, one Church. It seems that among the Greek Catholics, our Antiochian Melkite brothers have the most real perception of the Orthodox Church (and know that Antiochian Orthodox go out of their way to maintain good relations and with all the other SCOBA jurisdictions, which include both the OCA and EP Ukrainians and Carpatho-Rusyns).

I'm writing this so that a better knowledge of Orthodoxy (and not a misperceived one)may truly advance the dialogue between Catholicism and Orthodoxy to the Glory of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Humbly and with respect to all on this Blessed Forum,

Three Cents

Three-cents, it is my firm belief that if the Ukrainian people had the chance to deal with their ecclesiastical realities WITHOUT the intervention of outsiders, they would come to an agreement on their 'canonical' status and become a unified Christian community. I see the current efforts of the autocephalous and independent Ukrainian churches to come to a type of unity as the first step. If these communities can show forth their unity, then it will serve as a witness to the Moscow Ukrainians and the Catholic Ukrainians that unity is possible among the Ukrainian people. If this becomes the reality, then there should be little to impede unity apart from the desire of certain ones to preserve their political or ecclesiastical status.

I see the efforts of Ukrainian Christians as the harbinger of a model for Christian Unity. I don't want to put an additional burden on our Ukrainian brethren; they certainly have enough on their plates to deal with. BUT, and it's a big BUT, if Ukrainian Christians can hammer out a model of unity, then there is NO excuse for the rest of Christianity but to follow suit.

Perhaps the long-suffering of the Ukrainian people and their model for restoration will be the instrument that provides a model for the rest of the Christian world. I hope that this will be true.

May the Lord bless His Ukrainian people!

Blessings!

Dear Stefan-Ivan,

Patriarch Josyf did many things on his own authority, including the consecration of Bishop Lubomyr Husar without the Pope's approval. Whatever you called him, he was the leader of his Church.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

>>>Cardinal Lubachevksy did not refer to himself as Patriarch, although some clergy did until he established that he wanted to be
refered to as Major-Archbishop.<<<

Everyone continued to refer to him as the Patriarch, though--except to his face, and in official documents. Even some Ukrainian Orthodox autocephalous groups viewed him as the rightful Patriarch of Kiyv.