www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Veils/Headcoverings

At the front of the Church there's the raised choir, and a step up from that is the curtain to the main altar. To the sides are the curtains to the Communion rooms, which are a step up from the Nave. In the back of the Communion rooms it's raised for the side Altars. Alternately there can be 5 curtains at the front, one for the main Altar, two for the side altars, and then further out two for the Communion rooms. Behind the iconostasis it's all pretty much open between the Sanctuaries and the Communion rooms, but usually there are steps up to the Sanctuaries, and sometimes a wooden wall with door. I haven't seen many Churches to see all the variations.

In this picture you can see 5 curtains at the front for the 3 altars & Communion rooms on the outsides: http://www.stathanasius.miss.on.cop...hotoAlbum/Church/StAthanasius_Inside.jpg

In this picture you can see three, so probably the outside two open to Communion rooms which raise up at the back for side Sanctuaries: http://www.stathanasius.miss.on.coptorthodox.ca/Menu/Gallery/PhotoAlbum/Church/StMary_Inside.jpg

Here's the type of wooden wall I mean: http://www.stathanasius.miss.on.coptorthodox.ca/Menu/Gallery/PhotoAlbum/Church/StMary_Main_Altar.jpg

more pictures: http://www.stathanasius.miss.on.coptorthodox.ca/Menu/Gallery/PhotoAlbum/PhotoFrame.htm

Bobby pins, ladies, that's how you keep one of the lacy mantilla style veils in place!
I still think the RC churches might have less chit-chatting before Mass starts if ... or never mind.
denise

Dear Coptic Orthodox,
why a men's door and a women's door?
Do they stand in church on separate sides, then go up to communion separately?
denise

Alex wrote:"...find women in veils just as much a turn-on as I do..."

and he has it correct! That was the purpose for women covering their heads in church. You could tell from the type and style of the headcovering who was married, widowed or eligible for marriage.

You could also see from the headcovering, which family had a daughter with a dowery and which one did not. You got to see how much money she was bringing with her and how rich you would get when you said I DO!

You go Alex!!

oh, congrats on hitting the BIG 10!!

mark

Diak wrote:"...the "cradle" Antiochians don't wear them but many of the former Protestants who converted through the Antiochians do..."

Diak, I had the opportunity to attend vespers at the local Antiochian parish that is made up entirely of converts.

We were actually having an ikon writing workshop and they were scheduled to have Vespers that evening so a few of decided to attend Vespers.

We were standing there waiting for Vespers to begin and then some of the women from our workshop who belong to the Community entered the Sanctuary. They had put on these floor length black robes and long black scarves.

For the sake of clarity, picture any of the women from Iran, Afghanistan or Iraq and just add the ikons in the background and you'll get the picture.

Talk about distracting during Vespers between tripping on the hems, adjusting the scarves and the one woman doing her imitation of Michael Jackson while lighting candles in front of the Holy Ikons, it was amazing....

Guess we're not in some little village church anymore....

JMHO...

mark

Dear Mark,

Thank you for sharing that great info about the veils!

I have a joke for you, if you promise to keep it to yourself here . . .

A woman about to get married asked her mother for some general "life advice."

Her mother simply told her to "always leave a part of yourself a mystery to your husband."

Following the wedding, the newly married couple were on their honeymoon.

At one point, the husband turned to his bride and said, "Does insanity run in your family?"

The bewildered wife said, "Why?"

"Well," said the perplexed husband, "This is the third night you're coming to bed with your hat on!"

Alex

Yep, men stand on the left (North) & women on the right (south). First the priest takes the Body to the men, then the women, then the Blood to the men, then the women. If there are two priests the Body & Blood are taken to the men, then women. If there are 4 priests everyone receives at once. If there are large enough Communion rooms everyone stands in the rooms from the start of Communion to wait, if not then people line up.

But it's the priests job to teach us how to worship properly... not to force us to. They're servents, not dictators. They can teach us why to do things, why we should, but ultimatly it's our choice. A priest could ask someone to put one on to receive Communion, but most probably would prefer not to make a scene out of it and drive the person away over a minor thing like this.

I always wondered the same thing - thanks for asking, Miriam, and getting responses.

I don't wear one myself. It's never been the custom in any parish I've gone to. I'm kind of neutral on mantillas, babushkas, whatever one calls 'em. Only one woman I've noticed in my parish does - and she has the mantilla type that frequently slides off and lands on the floor when she goes to Communion. My guess is that she doesn't pin it because she has a small child she holds and who tugs on the lace and sometimes tosses her mantilla away -and she'd probably be losing patches of hair if she tried to hard to keep it on. She always looks very nice - actually, her whole family always looks very nice - and very respectful. It's a large family and I'm impressed the parents get the kids out the door looking so very nice.

I have visited synagogues, where women wore lace thingies on their heads and they had some at the door for visitors or the forgetful and, of course, I wore one. Everyone had one. I figure it is respectful to conform and that is clearly their tradition. I got so used to having it there by the end of the service one time (friend's bar mitzvah) that I almost walked around all day with it on.

I have been to Orthodox churches (including one where a relative was the priest) were women wear babushkas and where trousers on ladies, no matter how nice, are very much frowned upon, and I've put a scarf on my head and worn a long dress and I'm fine with that.

The thing that always gets to me is immodesty in dress in church. I don't see this much in my own parish, but I have been to ones where half the women under 40, regardless of size, show up in belly shirts, tight skirts, and those ugly platform flip flops. Eek. Perhaps in the days when mantillas, babushkas, etc. were more common, that sort of thing wouldn't happen because, well, a veil-like accoutrement does remind one very much of one's modesty.

Dear Brother Alexander,

I have doubts about the correctness of this statement. My research has led me to the conclusion that since St. Linus of Rome (1st Century) forbade women to enter the Church with their heads uncovered, it has always been the Roman Church's Canon that a woman must have her head covered in Church. This was even part of the 1917 code:

"The Church considered this practice important enough to enshrine it in Canon Law (e.g. "the 1917 Code, canon 1262, 2, required that women have their heads covered when assisting at sacred rites, especially when going to Communion.")."

This Canon was only dropped in the post Vatican II revisements of the Church of Rome's Canon Law.


reply:
I can not speak for the other Orthodox Churches but I've been told that in the Armenian Church it is Canon Law that a women have her head covered to receive Holy Communion. Usually there is a person there handing out veils to women as they approach Holy Communion so that they may cover their heads.

I'm excited about this article because it seeks to preserve tradition and fly in the face of modern-day paganized culture. And, as Alex said, its a beautiful tradition shared in common by the entire Catholic Church. I'm all for this as I think most in this forum are. What little bit of study I've done on the subject can be found at:

http://www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/apologetics.html

Lastly, I have to say that veils have the opposite effect on me than they do you, Alex. I think a women's hair is much more attractive or arousing than is a veil, hence this is one example of the usefulness of veils. They help keep our eyes from being distracted (except for you ofcourse .

Trusting In Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian
Looys Kreesdosee
www.geocities.com/derghazar [geocities.com]

Dear Ghazar and Alex,

In the Greek Orthodox churches both here and in Greece, head coverings are not required nor are they the norm.

They are required, however, in the monasteries set up by the elder Ephraim of Mt. Athos, and under the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, here in the United States. Lest one not know that they are required (like me the first time I visited one ) or forget, the monks have them available. They also have long skirts available.

In Greece, monasteries give out long skirts to female visitors, but don't require any head covering.

I am fascinated by this thread. I never knew that hair was a turn on!

Alice

Dear Alice,

Its interesting to learn that few Greek Orthodox Churches are preserving this ancient tradition.

As for hair being a turn on: ofcourse this depends on the woman, the hair and the man looking at them. But don't underestimate what can arouse the sexual impulses of man. It doesn't take much for most men. Hence the need for modesty which we lack so badly in our day. And I think our brother Alexander what recognize that what I write is really "honest." The Fathers of the Church certainly had no illusions about it. Neither did the Holy Nuns who wore habits of great modesty for this precise reason.

My God, how we have fallen away from this important rule of modesty. No wonder we are such a sexually indulgent/intoxicated culture. Lord help us to remember modesty!

Ghazar,

What you speak is truth! Brian and many on this forum should take note of your words.

May God Bless you and your family!

It should be remembered that we are allowed to have different opinions on such matters!

It should also be remebered that for nearly two thousand years, the Church did not have pick and mix piety, but that Eastern Christians respected and accepted godly and spiritual customs of the past with humility and obedience - even though they didn't like some of them!!!

In our age of political correctness Byzantine Christians are often allowed to dress how they like in Church, recieve holy Communion when they want regardless of fasting and preparation, and as for regular confession - especially before Holy Communion - well that's almost forgotten in many places (Orthodox places, perhaps also in Byzantine Catholic places). The ego reigns supreme.

A little more humble acceptance of the ways of our forefathers might help us a great deal.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.