www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Dialogue with an Arian

Dear Friends,

For amusement purposes only... here is a recent dialogue I had with an Arian.

Dialogue with a Neo-Arian

1. First, I received these two fine posts in my guest book:

Name: Minister Derrick

Comment or Question: The Catholic church is the most hypocritical church ever created. You changed the Apostles Doctrine to the trinity and you changed the water baptism in Jesus name to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Comment or Question: The Catholic church is the most wicked, hypocritical, idolatrous, blasphemous church ever created. Your leader was a supreme devil, Constantine the Great Blasphemer. Your church is on their way to Hell. You say Peter and Paul were Catholic, but that is a

to view guest book: http://us.geocities.yahoo.com/gb/view?member=wmwolfe_48044

2. Therefore, I replied with the following:

Dear Minister Derrick,

Thank you for contacting me with such kind words. The love of Christ radiating
from your words nearly brought about my conversion. Yet, your approach might be able to use a little refinement.

But -please- don't flatter me by implying that I'm worthy of persecution for the
hope that is within me. I certainly am not worthy of such an honor.
Furthermore, don't flatter yourself by imagining that I'm interested in the
least bit about what you, "Minister Derrick," thinks of the faith I hold.
Really, don't you have better things to do with your time than writing people
with web-sites to give them your judgment on whether they are going to heaven or to hell?

Seriously though, when you are ready to show a little more charity in your tone,
a little maturity in your attitude, and a little mutual respect, I'd be quite
willing to dialogue with you about the faith of the Lord and Savior Jesus
Christ.

Until then, spare me your Neo-Arian rhetoric.

Continuing to trust in Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian
Looys Kreesdosee
www.geocities.com/derghazar [geocities.com]

p.s. I have posted your submissions to my guest book so everyone can see the
vehemence which exists against the Body of Christ. Thank you.

3. To which he replied:

You came with no scriptures to support your false church. Yes I am adamantly against the Catholic church. You worship and pray to a dead woman. Where is yuor Bible for that? You call your leaders Father, but the one true Father is Jesus. You pray with your Rosary beads. Scripture please. You teach Purgatory, but the Lake of Fire is forever and ever. You can go to your little confession booths all you want, but you are still a sinner in the original false Christian church. You are not Catholic, you are pagan Roman. Why do you think your church is full of lesbians, homosexuals, and child moloesters. The Catholic church is the headquarters of Satan and the Antichrist. It is admitted even by your leaders that you changed the baptism in Jesus name to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. You also introduced the blasphemous three God doctrine called the trinity at Nicea in 325. There is not a church more hypocritical than the Roman Catholic church, nor more of a false prophet than the Pope. You put up so called pictures of Jesus, but that is Constantine the Great. I despise your church's rampant idolatry. Peter and Paul were Jesus Only, not Catholic. Loose here in Jesus name. You know nothing the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus will destroy the Catholic church when he returns. Do your research and then put up Catholicism against Jesus Only. You better leave that wicked church running while you still can.

Minister Derrick (not afraid to rebuke the wicked Catholic church)

4. To which I replied:

Dear Minister Derrick.,

You really need to study the faith of the early Church. If you took a little time to do so, you would see how very silly you sound. Your e-mails drip with fear. Don't be afraid of the truth. Remember "perfect love casts out fear." I once believed all the stuff you do, and more. Then I began to see what the first Christians and the early Church believed (way before St. Constantine), and I began to realize that my faith did not match theirs. Study the pre-Nicean Church and you will see our entire faith is there as it has been in every century down to today. If you don't have time for books, spend a little time at this web-site and you will see how your faith does not match that of early Christianity.

see: http://www.catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp

Now, my web-site is an ecumenical one, not one of Catholic apologetics. So, you are kind of barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for a fight. Five years ago, I would've wrote you until my fingers were sore. But I'm a little older and wiser now. I know someone like you has so much hate in their heart, that you are not even looking for the truth. You are simply trying to insult and tear down others who do not hold your own private interpretations of the Holy Bible. So, I wont be wasting much time with you until you show me your attitude has been significantly altered.

But just to demonstrate to you a little how "off" you are about me and what I believe allow me to say this:

a. Christians have always called their ministers by the affectionate title "Father." Ever since the time of St. Paul 1 Cor. 4:15.

b. St. Mary is not dead (St. John 11:25-26).

c. We do not worship her as if she were God. You bear false witness against us. May God have mercy on you for such false allegations against his disciples.

d. The English word "pray" literally means to ask. It is in this sense that we "pray" to her or anyone other than God. In old English Bibles many times you'll read one person saying "I pray thee." This doesn't mean they worshipped that person as God but it simply means "I ask you." We ask all our fellow Christians to pray for us whether they are here in this world or with the Lord. The book of Revelation shows that those in heaven are concerned with us here below on earth and beseech the Lord on our behalf: Rev. 6:9-11, 8:3-4, etc. Since our brothers and sisters in heaven are aware of our plight here on earth, we do ask (pray) them to pray for us (as the book of Revelation clearly shows that their prayers are offered to God).

e. I don't pray with Rosary beads. I'm an Eastern Catholic. This means I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian who's Church made peace with the Roman Catholics. We don't pray the Rosary in our Church. Sorry. If you want to debate the Rosary, you'll have to find a Roman Catholic.

f. We don't teach purgatory either. You should really spend some time reading before you make all these wild, silly allegations. If you want to familiarize yourself with the Eastern Christian understanding of the afterlife you can visit my Apostolic Tradition page at: http://www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/apologetics.html

g. We don't use confessional booths either. Boy, you are really showing your ignorance here. Haven't you ever heard of Eastern Christianity? After all, our Lord himself was from the East. What do you think ever happened to all those places you read about in your Bible? Places like Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Cappadocia, Syria, Galatia, Thessalonica, Athens, Greece, Asia Minor, etc. Most of the Churches the Apostles founded are still there. You should read up on them. They are called Orthodox Churches. You might be surprised by what you find.

h. Lesbians, homosexuals and child molesters? Your fear and hate are apparent. Remember "from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Again, you've got the wrong Church, you silly man. Read. Read. Read!!! Although there are plenty of sinners and hypocrites in my Church, the Church with the huge sex scandals is the Roman Catholic Church. If you want to talk about the RC problems, find an RC. By the way, married men may be priests in the Eastern Churches.

i. Pagan Roman eh? I've got news for you, you silly ignoramus. Historically, my Church (Armenian) laid outside of the Roman Empire. If you read a little, you will see our nation accepted Christianity before the Roman Empire did (301 AD). You are so uninformed. A famous convert to Roman Catholicism (John Henry Newman) once said, "to know history is to cease to be Protestant." In your case, this of course would have to changed to "to know history is to cease to be a Neo-Arian."

j. As far as Baptism in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, the only thing my Church leaders admit is that it comes from the Lord Himself. (St. Matthew 28:19-20). And of course, being our Lord in this verse commanded His Church to do so, she has done so ever sense.

k. As far as our faith in the Holy Trinity is concerned, do a little research and you will see that faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit was alive and well in the first three centuries of Christianity, well before St. Constantine ever entered the picture. Visit the first link I sent you to see this very clearly.

As for the rest of your silly ramblings allow me to say this. Your faith is an imagined one. You have all these theories like "your pictures of Jesus are really Constantine" etc. Which is fine if you want to believe such silly things. But there is no proof for them, it is all imagined and made up by someone. Just like the fake faith of Scientology. You have no martyrs for such ridiculous accusations. No one's willing to die for such made up silly things.

But I have proof for my faith coming from every century of Christianity. I have a faith that has saints and martyrs in every century down to our day. And, I can show Christians have always believed what I believe starting with the Bible and in every century down to our day. This is something you can not do. Your private interpretation of the Bible is just that: your private interpretation. Yet St. Peter commanded us not to do this (2 St. Peter 1:20-21). Rather we are told by St. Paul that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 St. Timothy 3:15). This Church holds to all the Apostles taught in the Epistles and by Word of mouth (2 Thessalonians 2:15). Your Church (if you even belong to one) does not.

So you have a choice: continue to live in ignorance and cling to your hate-filled myths -or-open your eyes and turn to Christ's Light. Study the faith of the early Church. By the way, the way to do this is not by reading some spin-doctor but by reading the writings of the first Christians themselves. Don't take someone's word about what they believed, get it from the horses' mouth. Read Ignatius of Antioch, Ireneaus of Lyons, Justin the Martyr, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, the Didache, in short, read the Apostolic Fathers all who were within one or two generations of the Apostles. It is their same faith that the ancient Churches follow to this day.

Well, there it is. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to write like this again... its been years since I debated with a silly goose like you. Go ahead and reply. When you do, do not expect a response. I know you will not take any of my above advice. I know you will totally close your heart to everything I have to say. In fact, the only reason I wrote this is to put it on my web-site (coming soon at the link above).

So, unless you prove me wrong, unless you change and actually write something intelligent and worthy of reply, I'm not going to continue this silly correspondence. I've got bigger and better things to do than waste my time with your ridiculous myths (2 St. Peter 1:16-21). May God bless you in your search for His truth.

In Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian

p.s. Remember, I'm allowing you one response. After this I will no longer be receiving you e-mails. Take care.

If you honestly want to learn more, this site should be able to answer most of your questions: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM

5. To which he gave the final reply
(which didn't come with great surprise):

You Catholic hypocrite. Loose here in Jesus name. The only early church is the church of the Apostles. All the Apostles baptized in water Jesus name. You can't prove me wrong through the scriptures. Are you saying the Apostles disobeyed Jesus commandment in Matthew 28:19? If so, then throw the Bible away because Paul wrote most of the New Testament epistles. The early church you refer to is Catholic devils who took over after the death of the Apostles. Mary was a sweet woman, but she is dead and awaiting judgment. By the way, Mary was a Christian, not a pagan Catholic. She is not to be prayed to. She is not an intercessor because she is dead in the grave. If she was so divine, why was she is the upper room waiting for the Holy Ghost with the Apostles? I don't care about Eastern or Western, you are still a trinitarian with no leg to stand on. All the Apostles were Jesus Only. You wolf in sheep's clothing. You know nothing of the apostles. If you obeyed the Apostles, you would be baptized in the only saving name, which his Jesus. The Catholic church is the chief synagogue of Satan and his Antichrist. You obey the Catholic doctrien, which has no Bible validity. I wil continue to expose your false doctrine of devils. Apostolic tradition!! You follow the Catholic apostles, not Jesus' Apostles. Justin Martyr practically invented the term trinity. Jesus will destroy the Catholic church as soon as he returns in judgment. You ae the one who fears me. I will die exposing any trinitarian, especially you pagan Catholics. Father with a little f was used, but there is no Bible for Father Paul, Father Peter, or Father Phillip. Stop spreading those lies. I won't waste time with anyone that prays to a dead woman. I come with Bible, you come with rhetoric and false doctrien created by your church. Read the Bible, and stop listening to the Pope. Those demosn you mentioned are all going to open up their eyes in the Lake of Fire. They changed the Apostles Doctrine, and for that they will never br forgiven. The Apostolic Fathers were Paul and Peter, not Clement or Polycarp.

May God bless you in your search of the truth.
Minister Derrick

6. So why publish this nonsense?

a. First of all, I'm honored by the novelty of speaking with an actual Arian (albeit one who is a “Neo-Arian”). Its kind of like seeing a species of animal (like the Wooly-Mammouth) which you thought was long extinct. It shows that even though this heresy was effectively dealt with in the early Church, their are still some traces of its error in the world today. As the saying goes, “old heresies die hard.”

b. It is educational in many ways. It shows what hate and fear exists against Apostolic Christianity. Notice how the writer first blamed everything on St. Constantine? Then when I explained to him that our faith matches that of the Christians who pre-date St. Constantine, he denounced those Christians too.
In other words, according to him, since the writing of the New Testament, there has never been an authentic visible expression of Christ's Church in the world. Those who were historically visible and being killed for their faith in Christ in the first three centuries (like St. Justin the Philosopher and Martyr), were not true Christians but rather impostors. The real Church was secretly tucked away in some imaginary place and has likewise been hidden ever since.
As silly as this sounds, one has to take such a paranoid view of Church history like this if they want to reject the historic Nicene Christian faith. They have to believe Christianity was de-railed immediately after the death of the last apostle and taken over by a false group of so-called believers. Lacking any historical evidence for such a view, this requires a lot of faith to believe something like this. It is unreasonable, paranoid and unhistorical. But it also implies that Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostles utterly failed in passing on the message of salvation to the world.
Such a view ignores that the existence of the Holy Bible itself is utterly dependent on the very men, this “Minister” so viciously denounces. If it weren't for these Apostolic Fathers, we not only wouldn't know of the New Testament letters, we would have no idea which letters constitute the authentic canon and which were written by impostors. Of course, it was the one catholic and apostolic holy Church which sifted through the numerous letters circulating as authentic documents of the Holy Apostles in the early Church and determined the New Testament Canon which all Christians hold to today. These are the same men the kind “minister” denounces as members of the “synagogue of Satan.” Obviously all of these historical considerations have escaped his notice. After all, “ignorance is bliss.” Let us all pray for the lost who cling to heretical views that the Holy Spirit will root out the growths of heresies, and silence the ragings of the heathen. Let us also pray for ourselves, lest after preaching to others we ourselves might become disqualified of eternal glory.

Trusting in Christ's Illuminating Light,
Wm. Der Ghazarian

on the feast of the Ark of the Covenant,
Armenian Church Calendar, July 26, 2003

Dear Ghazar:

I must admit that I usually don't read long posts around here word for word - but I did this one.

As long as I'm admitting things, I once (In a moment of bitterness) signed the guestbook of one of these "evangelical" Protestant groups working in Ukraine and gave them a piece of my mind. Maybe others have, too. (Maybe that's a good topic for a new thread??)

Anyway, they never wrote back (Chicken ).

Of course, I am no one to approve or disapprove of what you do, but please allow me to say that I greatly admire how you handled this "minister" in the face of his obvious and deep hatred.

I did find it very interesting, though, that he didn't see fit to respond to your point that the Armenians accepted Christianity before Constantine converted.

Yours,

kl

Ghazar:

Very interesting. Sounds a lot like the ragings I have heard from some people in the Anabaptist tradition here in the area where I live. Not a lot different from some of the mainline Protestant churches prior to the late 1960s when many of them modified some of this in a more ecumenical spirit. However, I have recently read a statement of faith that is required by one of the mainline churches of their ministerial candidates and it contains many of the same ragings against the Catholic Church (and by extension all the Apostolic Churches).

Your even-toned response is a tribute to the love of God living within you. Thank you for your living witness to the Faith. May the Lord continue to work within the good soil of your heart for the building up of His Church and those around you.

BOB

Dear Brothers Krylos Leader and Theophan,

First off, forgive my ignorance, but I'm interested in learning what both of your screen names refer to? Would you mind explaining these to me?

Secondly, I really appreciate your feedback about the dialogue. Thanks for taking the time to read it and respond. Thank you even more for your brotherly encouragement. May you both have a blessed Lord's Day.

In Christ's Light,
Ghazar

Dear Krylos Leader,

I've got to tell you, upon re-reading your reply, I got a real chuckle out of this comment. Thanks again. Your right, he side stepped the whole question of Christians outside of the geographical boundries of the Roman Empire. Maybe this is why God in His wise Providence allowed such problems in the early Church? The great diversity -and even the historical problems and controversies themselves- all serve us as historic sign posts and markers of authentic history. In other words there is so much evidence for historic Christianity. And thank God for that or I for one would certainly still be out there "searching."

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Ghazar

reply:
So in other words, even if the ancient Churches are unable (at this point in history) to restore our Communion and unity, the "Bob Jones" of the world, in their extreme hatred for us, are certainly willing to unite us in their condemnations? Very interesting indeed.

Ghazar,

Bravo! Like you it has been years since I even tried to converse with a screwball like the one you encountered. But reading your response brought great joy. Not only were you a Christ-like gentleman but your analysis is exactly on point. I'm eager to meet you when we once again come to Livonia.

Theophan,

"However, I have recently read a statement of faith that is required by one of the mainline churches of their ministerial candidates and it contains many of the same ragings against the Catholic Church (and by extension all the Apostolic Churches)."

Which one was this?

Dan Lauffer, a former United Methodist Minister

Ghazar,

Very good response. My Jewish friends even use the phrase, "Pray, tell," when asking a question.

There is a puzzle that I always like to put before these kind of folks: Ask them to show where in the New Testament (or Old Testament) where a list of biblical books are given. If the "Bible told me so," then where did the Bible tell us which books were supposed to be there?

[And if an outside authority determined the canon of scriptures, then what does that say about the authority of the Bible?]

To date, I have yet to get an answer to my puzzle.

Cantor Joe Thur

Unfortunately, "Minister" Derrick" had his mind made up and I don't think any kind of argument (even made from the Scriptures and the Fathers) would have convinced that kind of mindset.

His "arguments" are no different from the usual anti-Catholicism (much of his rhetoric would have been known to Protestant Americans at the time of the Know Nothings of the 1850's)

The only difference is that these people have discovered the Net. May God change their hearts and help them see with a less narrow vision of God and the Holy Church.

Hopefully your site will bring more people to see this wider vision!!!!

Minister Derrick sounds more like a neo-Modalist as opposed to a neo-Arian. Modalists (Monarchians) stressed the Unity of God to the exclusion of the Trinity, i.e., not only are the Father and the Son one, they are one Person. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are energies (modes) of the One God. So just as the same man can be father, son, or husband, so the Same Person of the One God Jesus can be Father, Son or Holy Spirit. This group is present today among the so-called Unity Churches, ie, United Pentecostal Church, Apostolic Church, etc. Among mainline groups they are known as "Jesus-only" Churches, because they only baptised in the name of Jesus, and not the Orthodox practice of the Trinitarian formula.

(Fr Dcn) John

Ghazar,

You gave a wonderful response to this situation. Your words echo many of the words of the Church Fathers in response to heresies. Your words are a great defense of Orthodoxy.

Dear Ghazar,

Yes, I've received similar messages from people like that on another site where I am an administrator.

This is definitely a "unity" fellow who is not an Arian - he affirms the Divinity of Christ, but denies the Trinity.

My own view is that I won't enter into conversations with people who are abusive and disrespectful.

Ultimately, my favourite foray is to get on the topic of the scriptures themselves, and how the canon was established.

The aim of this is to get the person to at least appreciate that the canon of scriptures themselves were established by the very church he or she is villifying. To even read the scriptures is to trust the judgement of that very Church in determining them.

In addition, how the unity people can maintain the Apostles never baptized in the Name of the Trinity when this was a direct order given them by Christ at the end of the Gospel of Matthew is really beyond all telling!

Alex

Dear Ghazar:

For an explanation of my screen name, please see my last post under the "Seeing the Church Through Byzantine Eyes" threat on the "East and West" Board.

Glad I made you chuckle as well.

Yours,

kl

How large is this "unity" church and where did they come from? Is it another recent Protestant movement?

If you are interested here is the United Pentecostal Church website:

UPC website [upci.org]

(Fr Deacon) John