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And, I recall a professor in seminary who attended the funeral of a Byzantine Catholic (a kin of an Orthodox Bishop to whom he was the cell attendant) which was in Slavonic, and remarking, in class the next day, in utter astonishment, that they called themselves "Provoslavnie Khistian'i" ("Orthodox Christians") and wondered why they would do such a thing when clearly they were not ... they commiserated the Pope of Rome! He thought it was intentional deception or confusion, and he is a very educated person raised in the USA.

"Intentional deception or confusion"?

Could it rather be that when tbose Orthodox who entered communion with Rome did not feel they were abandoning Orthodoxy in the process?

Certainly, many Orthodox would feel they were abandoning Orthodoxy but can we not allow that those that entered union with Rome were sincere and had no intention of renouncing Orthodoxy?

Nec

Oh, boy!

I think I just have to stay away from my PC and sit down and sip my coffee somewhere and relax.

It's getting awfully too hot in here, presaging a steamy summer?

Everybody take a deep breath while I'm away, and down, will you?

Amado

Father Lance,

> They do not hold to Monophysitism but
> Miaphysitism which is the term St. Cyril of
> ALexandria used.

Please explain to me the difference between Monophysis and Miaphysis, because I honestly can't see any semantic nuance making them separate terms. And, whether or not you can explain that difference, have you any notion as to whether adherents of that doctrine prefer to call it One-natured as opposed to Single-natured?

Photius

Thus posted Nec Aliter:

> "Intentional deception or confusion"?

> Could it rather be that when tbose Orthodox who
> entered communion with Rome did not feel they
> were abandoning Orthodoxy in the process?

My explanation is that they thought that Roman Catholicism was the true Faith.

Given the incredibly long renunciations of all the errors of the Orthodox Church that one once professed when changing religions (and that, at least less than 30 years ago, Ukrainian bishops-elect made before their ordinations), I can not fathom that, before modern times, they "did not feel they were abandoning Orthodoxy"; methinks your premise is false as an anachronism.

Photius

I'll confirm that for the Melkites. I visited one Melkite Parish that used the phrase at Vespers ("confirm O Lord the pious and orthodox faith" or something like that) and also at Divine Liturgy ("Again, we pray for the blessed and ever to be remembers founders of this holy church and for our orthodox fathers and brethren"). In fact, had it not been for a commemoration "for John Paul Pope of Rome", there was really no way you could have figured they weren't Orthodox.


Oh, and about the Roman canon: the phrase "et omnibus orthodoxis, atque catholicae and apostolicae fidei cultoribus" probably goes back as far as the Roman canon goes - to the 6th century or so (I'm sure someone has gone and charted the history of this). It of course was the standard canon of the Roman rite since, and can be used substantially unaltered today. In fact, Cardinal Ratzinger used the same canon at Pope John Paul II's funeral Mass.

Marc
[who would not be surprised at all if "All Saints of North America Melkite Greek Catholic Church" someday morphs into "All Saints of North America Melkite Orthodox Church (in Union with Rome)" or some such variant.]

Shlomo Admin,

Thank you for seeing the point that I was making. Bigottry in all forms is wrong. For all those Southerners I did offend I am sorry, but I felt that only an object lesson was the only way to get through. As ByzanTN post shows he was upset by my statements.

I agree that "PC"ness has gotten out of hand, but that does not mean people have the right to disrespect others.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo ByzanTN,
First thing you have to understand is that many peoples have historic memory. The Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine) Church is a prime example. They keep bringing up the sacking of Constantinople by Western troops. And before you tell us to "get over it", I would say you should say the same thing to some Armenians (this Sunday is the 90th aniversary of the start of the Armenian Genocide), or to Jews because the holocaust happened 60 years ago. Just because something is past does not negate its relavance.

And As for studying U.S. History, I am quit versed in it since I majored in history. I even know how Tennessee came to becalled the Volunteer State.

My point still remains that people no matter who they are like being labeled by others that is disrespectful. Biggottry, which is a sin, is like a roach. If you do not fumagate for it, it will breed. And those of us who sit by and let biggottry breed, are just as bad as those who spout it.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

I find it interesting that my relatives have always called themselves "Pravoslavnij" yet when looking at their old baptismal records, all of them, at least until the 1920s (well after Toth), were baptised into the Greek Catholic Church.

They still remain blissfully ignorant of the difference between Byzantine Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and when I point out the difference, they vehemently deny that there could possibly be a Catholic Church that uses the Orthodox liturgy. To them, any church with an onion dome and a triple cross is Orthodox.

Funny thing is that in the "outside world," when I meet a Byzantine Catholic (or any Eastern-rite Christian), I still feel the same sense of fraternity as I do with a fellow Orthodox.

To everyone: I've been avidly re-reading the published writings of Pope Benedict the Orthodox - and those published writings substantiate that title. Sometime after Pascha, I'll try to compile a list of specific quotes and references.

Dear Photius,
I realize that Holy Week begins tonight and I am running around at twice the advisable speed myself. Neverthelesss, you are being a bit on the shrill side, which is not your usual style. Perhaps the intensity of Holy Week and a good dose of Paschal joy will help?
Lex orandi, lex credendi.

fraternally in Christ,

Incognitus

Because I can't decide whom to address, I'm going to forego my usual rule - to always speak to someone specifically.

Bigotry is an ugly thing, whether using the premise of color, race, ethnicity, nationality, language, tribalism, regionalism, sexuality, or whatever other basis one to which one can append it. Perhaps, though, it is never so ugly as when applied to religion, since the nature of religion, at least in the Judeo-Christian conception and in almost every other, is one of love and charity, focused on a benevolent and loving God.

We may believe those of other faiths to be in error as to their beliefs and we may, legitimately, discuss those and show them what we believe to be truth, but it is both wrong and counterproductive to denigrate their faith or to ignore whatever good their faith has contributed to their spiritual well-being and the betterment of God's world. That the Catholic, Western and Eastern, and Orthodox, Eastern and Oriental, Churches all claim use of the words "catholic" and "orthodox" as appropriate descriptors of their faiths should, rather than divide us, spur us on to greater efforts to discover our commonalities and move toward reunification, not act as barriers or as an excuse to fight over who legitimately owns and uses which term.

Many years,

Neil

Irish Melkite wrote:

This bears repeating! Amen and amen!

> I realize that Holy Week begins tonight and I am running around
> at twice the advisable speed myself. Nevertheless, you are
> being a bit on the shrill side, which is not your usual style.
> Perhaps the intensity of Holy Week and a good dose of Paschal
> joy will help?

Dear Incognitus and all other readers,

Please forgive me in anyway I may have offended any of you! Perhaps I wrote something intended as humor that was taken as an insult, perhaps I really was shrill and do not recall it. I wish no offense to anyone whether he agrees with me or not. I wish only to exchange information and opinions. And, I realize that I am not the most tactful of men.

Incognitus has often patiently explained and defended postings of mine, and the fact that he perceives me as "shrill" makes me upset with my self, and repentant, of whatever it is that I did to offend. Again, brethren, please forgive me!

It is Palm Friday, and soon I shall cease posting until, probably, Bright Week, as I try to juggle work and family with long services, which I must sufficiently attend to keep the singers, readers, and servers informed of what to do when.

This morning, I chanced to look at the web site of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem,
http://www.jerusalem-patriarchate.org/intro.asp
and clicked on the first link, "The Patriarch of Jerusalem", and to my surprise and joy, my computer began playing the doxasticon of the aposticha of Pascha,
" ... let us embrace one another and say "brothers!" even to those who hate us, and let us forgive all for the Resurrection, that thus may we sing: 'Christ is risen from the dead, trampling ... '".

Getting back to the day, looking at my Slavonic Triodion which is open in front of me, I see the first sticheron for tonight's Vespers,
"Having completed the soul-health-giving forty days, we ask in the holy week to see Thy Passion, O Lover of Mankind, so that we may glorify therein Thy Majesty, and Thy ineffable looking our for our sakes, with united wisdom singing out: 'O Lord, glory to Thee!'"

Photius (translation challenged at the moment), Reader and Sinner

Dear Photius,

Thanks for your gracious and appreciated posting - forgive me for the sake of Christ. A good Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday to you, a prayerful Holy Week filled with blessings, and the infinite joy of Pascha!

Incognitus