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Christos Anesti, Alithos Anesti !

Dear Friends,

Last Friday, I attended the Great Friday "Apokathelosis" and Epitaphios (sp ?) services at St. Panteleimon Greek Orthodox Church.
I was amazed at the devotion and the piety of the faithful. I was able to understand a bit of the Greek and all of the English. After the passion gospel, the priest removed Christ from the Cross and wrapped Him in a white cloth and placed Him in a beautiful wooden "tomb". Afterwards the faithful were encouraged to approach and venerate. The smell of incense was everywhere, it was so beautiful. Just before they laid Christ into the tomb, the priest held Christ up in the centre of the church facing the faithful. At that moment every head bowed in reverence, it appeared as though we all did it at the exact same time.
One thing I found odd, is the kneelers in the pews. The priest then walked around the main aisle of the church with the body of our Lord, He asked everyone to kneel as best as they could. I had always thought (and through some of the discussions here) that EC's and EO's do not kneel but instead, bow profoundly. Kneeling is a Latin and western practice
I then asked my Koumbaro ( the son in law of a GO priest) about this. He told me that kneelers and kneeling used to be done a long time ago. They are now bringing it back.
Can someone please confirm this ?
All in all, I was extremely elated and uplifted for having attended these services. A beauty that I had never felt before.
Also, the fact that we brought Ava added to the day. At one point during the service, Ava asked me "Where's the Pope Daddy ?"
I was surprised that we were not escorted out smile

In the Risen Christ,

Brad

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Dear Brad,

We in the Greek Church do kneel at times. I wasn't aware that it was an old custom, because in Greece they do not kneel. I always considered it a new Western innovation that we just like...kind of like the campaneles, (I think that's the word for bell towers).

The service is exceptionally beautiful and awe inspiring, especially if the priest and congregation is highly devout. Uhhh! We have our modern one's, and the service might be basically the same, but the emotions are not. wink

Zenovia

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Brad,

Christ is Risen!

I'm glad that your experience at the Greek Orthodox Church was positive.

Regarding the kneeler question, it is not just kneelers which are out of place in an Orthodox church, but the pews themselves. That being said, they are a reality in the majority of Orthoox churches in North America, including, sadly, my own, and it's a difficult problem to deal with, if the priest chooses to.

There are a variety of postures and actions which Orthodox Christians do during worship. Standing is the most common posture during worship (hence the absence of pews), but also bowing. There are two types - a "little bow" (Gr., metania, Slav., poklon), where after one crosses themselves, and then bows from the waist touching their fingers to the floor (or to those of us who have put on a few pounds, as close as we can get!), and the "great bow" or prostration (Slav., veliki poklon), where you fall onto both knees, then bend to place your hands on the ground and touch your head to the ground.

So if you can imagine it, pews make prostrations impossible, and squelch Orthodox worship. This is most widely experienced during Great Lent, where, when the time for prostrations come, people either go out into the aisles and make prostrations (generally trying to avoid getting someone's heel in their face because of the limited space), or they do a small (quite contorted) bow from the pew, or the pews have erased the memories of the prostrations all together, and the people look oddly at the clergy doing prostrations as if they're introducing some type of moslem worship into their church.

Although kneeling has also become widespread in many Orthodox churches, kneeling is not commonly prescribed, instead, the prostration is. Sometimes, that prostration is "extended" for a short period of time. One example would be during the Great Entrance of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. When the priest processes with the presactified Lamb, all should bow with their faces to the floor for the entire procession.

Sundays we usually refrain from kneeling or prostrations (generally), as well as the entire period in between Pascha and Pentecost.

On Pentecost, we have what are called "kneeling prayers" where we kneel for (very lengthy) prayers to the persons of the Holy Trinity.

Orthodox worship involves the entire body and all the senses, as you experienced.

Hope this helps.

Priest Thomas
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA

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Bless, Father Thomas!

Christ is Risen!

Standing, I have found, isn't such a problem since the Eastern style is to keep the body in some motion, with Crossing, bows, prostrations etc.

That being said, most of us faithful are just plain out of shape!

Could you, when you have time, post a review of the times when we should be crossing ourselves during the Divine Liturgy?

Alex

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Christ is Risen!

Oh Alex, you know all these things! smile But I will humor you.

Of course, you know, that there are widely varying practices, both ancient and contemporary. Greeks tend to be much less rigorous about *when* to make the sign of the cross, while Slavs tend to the opposite.

Here are some generally accepted practices, more or less, followed by the Slavs:

Sign of the Cross without Bows:

At the middle of the Hexapsalm, at the triple Alleluia, three times
At the beginning of the Creed.
At the dismissal - "Christ our true God�"
At the beginning of a reading from Holy Scripture: Gospel, Apostle or Old Testament lesson.

Sign of the Cross with the Little Bow:

When entering or leaving a church - three times.
At every petitions of the litanies.
At the exclamation of the priest giving glory to the Holy Trinity.
At the words, "Take, eat�" "Drink ye all of this�" "Thine own of Thine own�" and "Holy Things for the holy!"
At the words, "Higher in honor than the Chrerubim.."
At the words, "Let us worship�," "We worship�," "We adore�," and "We fall down before�"
During "Alleluia," "Holy God," "O come, let us worship," and "Glory to Thee, Christ God," before the dismissal the sign of the Cross with little bow is made three times.
During the first and ninth odes of the canon, at the first refrain to the Lord, the Mother of God or the Saint.
After each stikhira - at which time the choir, which has finished singing, makes the sign of the Cross.
During the Litiya, at each of the first three petitions we sign ourselves and bow three times; after the remaining two petitions we sign ourselves and bow once.

Sign of the Cross with the Great Bow (Prostration):

During fasts, when entering and leaving church - three times.
During fasts, at each "� we magnify thee" in the refrain to the Canticle of the Mother of God (Magnificat).
At the beginning of "It is meet and right to worship the Father�"
After the "We sing unto Thee�"
After the hymn to the Mother of God or its substitute.
At he exclamation, "And grant u, O Master�," introducing the Lord's Prayer.
When the Holy Gifts are brought forth for Communion and again after Communion.
During the Great Fast at Great Compline during the singing of "Most holy Mother of God�" and at each of its several accompanying petitions; at Vespers, at the end of "Virgin Mother of God rejoice," and the two hymn following.
During fasts at the end of each section of the prayer "O Lord and Master of my life�"
During fasts, at the three concluding petitions - "Remember me, O Lord, when�"

Little Bow without the Sign of the Cross:

A the words, "Peace to all."
"The blessing of the Lord be upon you�"
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ�"
"And may the mercies of our great God�"
When the deacon exclaims, "And unto ages of ages" (after "For Thou Art Holy, O our God�")

The Sign of the Cross is *not* to be made:

During the six psalms.

Prostrations are not allowed on Sundays; from Nativity through Theophany; from Pascha until Pentecost Sunday; on the feast of the Transfiguration; and on the feast of the Elevation of the Cross (except the three prostrations to the Cross).

Prostrations cease with the entrance during Vespers of the feast and are not resumed until after "Vouchsafe, O Lord�" during Vespers on the day of the feast itself.

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Quote
Last Friday, I attended the Great Friday "Apokathelosis" and Epitaphios (sp ?) services
I think what you attended was Apokathelosis and Lamentations on Great and Holy Friday. It is during Lamentations that the procession and laying of the Epitaphios on the tomb takes place. I would actually say that they are together my favorite services in the entire church year, there is nothing like them. The hymns in particular are just incredible. We kneel at certain points (on the floor) during both these services. It also may not be correct, but many people myself included will also kneel during the prayers of consecration in the anaphora during Holy Week (although obviously not on Sunday).

I mentioned in another thread that due to need I was actually lucky enough this year to both take the corpus down from the cross during Apokathelosis and wrap it in the shroud and I participated in the carrying of the Epitaphios during Lamentations.

Fr. Thomas,

The only thing really specific I have ever been told about when to cross oneself is to never to do it when a priest is blessing you, because you are effectively blessing yourself at the same time (if that makes sense).

Regarding pews and kneelers, I don�t care for either. Kneelers in particular.

Andrew

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Quote
Originally posted by Rilian:

The only thing really specific I have ever been told about when to cross oneself is to never to do it when a priest is blessing you, because you are effectively blessing yourself at the same time (if that makes sense).
Andrew

Christ is risen!

Yes, this makes much sense and is reflected in some of the guidelines that I posted.

All the "rules" being said, it has to be acknowledged that the practice of crossing yourself has varied widely from time to time and from place to place.

Priest Thomas

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Bless, Father Thomas!

Christ is Risen!

Thank you for your forbearance! After reading all the rules, I wanted to cross myself at the end as well . . .

Cheers!

Alex

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We had Bishop Savva of Troas at our church for the apokathelosis which made the event even more special. Our priest got up on a ladder to "unnail" Christ from the cross. We were standing on the side and there was no room to kneel but we bowed our head very low when the shroud was processed around the church. OOh just the thought of that moment gives me goosebumps.

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The Epitaphios service is particularly moving - and amazing - in Athens, where the processions from different churches go around many blocks and even criss-cross.

At midnight on Pascha everyone watches the sky to see which church gets the fireworks off first.

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Thank you all for your replies.

Some very beautiful stories.

Brad


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