www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Fate of Judas (reconsidered)

yes, and if I recall correctly, the official Church line is that we cannot even assume anyone is in hell; just pray everyone is in Heaven, even Judas Iscariot, Marcus Brutus, Hitler, Pope Benedict the whatever &c.

Dear Don:

I must respectfully disagree with you. In all three of the synoptic gospels, JESUS states: "It would be better for that man if he had never been born." (Matt 26:24, Mark 14:21, Luke 22:22). The Catholic Study Bible notes that it would actually be better for Judas if he didn't exist (their implication is that he is in hell). The condemnation does not arise from God but from Judas' own hardened heart. All four of the gospels paint an extremely bleak portrayal of Judas even in light of, for example, Peter's denials, etc. And as Alex noted, the other apostles moved quickly to replace him; he was the only apostle ever replaced. There arises the implication that they treated Judas as if, in a sense, he didn't exist. Therefore, by this analysis, there is the recognized eternal condemnation of Judas by both the "bride" and the "bridegroom."

Dear Alex:

I think I may have found an answer to my question regarding the symbolism of hanging. The only mention of hanging in the OT was the suicide of Ahithophel, David's advisor who sided with David's rebellious son Absalom. (IISam 17:23) Therefore, suicide by hanging was an appropriate ending for a traitor.

However, if one accepts the existence of an eternal heavenly state, death by hanging does not seem worse than "not being born."

Yet another point to ponder:

Why 30 pieces of silver? There is more to this than fulfilment of prophecy. It has been estimated that this is roughly equivalent to about $10. This is hardly enough to turn anyone in. It was the equivalent of purchasing a slave, and simultaneously, the amount a master was required to compensate a Jewish slave if blood was drawn. Now consider: "Truly truly I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled. "He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me." (John 13:16-18) I am trying to draw out the message that Judas was seeking symbolic compensation and release from servitude to Jesus (God). Thus, he was "placing himself above the master."

John

Dear Mor Ephrem,

I have been remiss in not thanking you for starting this thread. This is something that has bothered me but I've never taken the time in the past to systematically review my own thoughts on this issue.

I think I can make a final statement regarding my discomfort with the concept of Judas' redemption.

Judas betrayed Jesus. If Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life," and Judas chose death* rather than facing Jesus really and personally again, then he cannot be redeemed. For if we hypothesize that he had a conversion in his heart, then we have to accept that he had found another way. This is not tenable with our Christian belief.

John

*Once again, the versions in Matt and Acts offer different accounts on Judas' death. In Matt it is via self-imposed hanging, in Acts it very well could have been due to an accidental fall.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Petrus ]

Dear John,

How interesting and I don't doubt that beautiful interpretation of the 30 pieces of silver.

Yes, hanging was fitting for a traitor, yet the OT is silent about the morality of doing that to oneself, we assume it is against it, of course.

Another point is that "Barabbas" means "son of the father" and so the people chose the false "son of the father" over the true "Son of the Father" who was condemned to be crucified for our sins.

Alex

So far this week, we've "remembered" Judas at least a dozen times. It dawned on me that some would consider this as an immortality of sorts. We even commemorate the dead of our families and recognize their eternity is, in part, connected with our remembrance of them. In light of the promise provided by the resurrection, the immortal life promised us is so much more than mere memorial!

John