www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Fate of Judas (reconsidered)

Dear Friends,

My little exchange with Alex in another thread about the sanctity of Pontius Pilate (yes, Alex, I'm gonna drop the subject shortly ) got me thinking. I'd always been sorta sympathetic to his character, although I didn't go so far as to call him a saint, which I do now. With that said, I'd like your opinions on Judas Iscariot.

We know that he was a bad apple, stealing from the common purse, complaining about the "waste" when the sinful woman anointed our Lord, and betraying Jesus to the priests for money, and finally committing suicide. It's easy to see why regarding him as a bad guy could be an understatement. And with Jesus saying that it were better if he (the man who would betray Him) were never born, it's easy to think that he would always be a bad apple, and end up in hell, like the general consensus (the Fathers, the Teachers, other persons, the opinion of the majority of people, and even certain cases of demonic possession where Judas seems to be one of the main players) seems to be about his fate.

With that said, I've still been kinda sympathetic to him. It's easy for us to look at the plain facts and make a guess about him. But what do we know about his mental state? It used to be that those who committed suicide were denied Christian burial, but now that we know that people who commit suicide were in great pain and saw no way out, and were in despair, we know that their judgment is clouded, and the Church now looks with a more sympathetic eye.

What is there to stop one from thinking that, when Judas finally realised the gravity of his crime, and when he tried to give the money back (maybe he hoped to save Jesus by doing this) and that didn't work, that he may have thought of all the bad he'd done, and fell into despair, and it clouded his judgment so much that suicide seemed the only option, but he was truly sorry for everything he'd done? Granted his example isn't the best one of repentance (it's no real example at all), since we look on people more mercifully now, are we allowed to think that maybe he was truly sorry, and God took pity on the man, and even though he committed suicide and betrayed the Son of God, still had mercy on him and saved him and that now Judas is with God? If it is not permissible to think so, why not?

I look forward to hearing from you guys. Thanks!

I felt bad for Judas too when I learnt about him as a kid. King Saul too. The part about the Lord leaving Saul and sending an evil spirit to him really bothered me. God doesn't directly cause evil. It seems better to say Saul's disobedience caused him to bring his problem on himself. That and the Jews' insistence on a king when at first God refused them one.

I've believed that like St Peter, Judas had a choice to repent and thus continue as an apostle, but didn't, which is why he came to a bad end.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Catholicos,

As a Catholicos, you certainly do have the power to extend the cult of any saint to your jurisdiction . . .

Someone here once said, a while ago, that the Armenians honoured Judas Iscariot as a saint. That's not true, and I don't know where that came from!

It is true that the descendants of Barabbas did in fact preach in Armenia and Georgia and I don't know if any of these were ever honoured as saints.

Although Judas met with a bad end, medieval art often depicted the symbols of the 12 Apostles, including that of Judas Iscariot!

So for St Peter there was the upside down Cross and the Keys etc.

Judas' symbols were the noose and a bag with 30 pieces of silver, as if he continued to be numbered among the 12!

We also don't know for certain whether Judas deliberately committed suicide, since the account in Acts describes his death in other terms.

What is clear is that he definitely came to repent of his sin by returning the money and publically convicting himself.

St Peter went out to weep bitterly after denying Christ three times.

Was Judas going out to do the same when he fell headlong and his insides fell out, as one account says?

There is, however, not one account of any kind of "cult" to Judas Iscariot in any Church anywhere.

St John in his Gospel certainly has no kind things to say about Judas, calling him a thief etc.

In the end, can we set boundaries to the mercy of God?

And if one believes he or anyone is in Heaven, one bishop gave me a formula as follows:

"O (name), if you are with the Lord, pray unto God for me!"

Alex

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Alex and Mor Ephrem:

Compassion for Judas is an understandable part of human nature. His sin, to those of us removed from Jesus by 2000 years does seem like an understandable human failing, and therefore one that is forgiveable. But there are two aspects to the conviction of Judas that warrant consideration.

First, and the less important of these is Judas so-called repentence. Yes, perhaps he did at some level recognize his sin and attempted recompense. Sin, however, is not a debt that can be paid. What has been done cannot be erased. This is the tragedy of sin. Sin is forgiven only by the grace of God. The implication is that his sin was not forgiven.

This brings up the more important aspect.

Judas KNEW Jesus. He therefore knew God, personally and completely. Yet, he denied Him. In this sense his suicide was different than any other suicide in history. Even if we accept that the suicidal individual perceives utter hopelessness, it is a delusional perception. There is hope but hope that the individual does not see. God is present just invisible. However, in the case of Judas, the hopelessness is complete. God is truly absent in his essence. There is a complete and total denial of relationship with God. Total denial even supercedes that of the demons. That is why it would have been better had he never been born. I believe that at his death he ceased to exist. Someone who came into existence has ceased to exist. He may be the only such creature (created being) to do so. This is the tragedy of Judas Iscariot.

In his latest book, The Inner Kingdom, Bishop Kallistos Ware ponders whether or not we should pray for the devil. He ultimately concludes that we should not. The devil's relationship to God is not our concern. It is the devil's alone. The same must be said for Judas.

Fr. Dcn. John

Dear Father Deacon John,

Thank you for your insights. I do have a couple of questions, though:

1. Sin is only forgiven by the grace of God, but I still don't see how it is implied that he wasn't forgiven. Could he not have cried out for the mercy of God even from his feelings of despair? After all, Our Lord did cry out what seems to many to be a cry of despair, but we dare not say that He did despair.

2. Judas knew Jesus. Therefore he knew God, as you say. But what indication do we have that he believed that Jesus was God? Would this not change things? Or is the direct physical presence of God so overpowering that he couldn't resist without a complete decision of the will? In that case, what should we say about all those who receive the Eucharist, and yet still sin, even though they are trying to cooperate with grace?

Thank you again for your thoughts. God bless.

Our tradition says no kind thing about Judas Iscariot. To be honest, it was the film "Jesus of Nazareth" that made me sympathize with Judas so intensely. Indeed, it presented the most heterodox depiction of Judas I have ever known (which doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't the best motion picture on our Lord that I've seen and the one I love the most). Judas betrays the Master for good intentions, not out of pure greed that our religion claims to have been his motive.

The point that Fr. brings up on the fallen apostle's hopelessness is new to me. I gather from what I read here that Judas' act of denial was what sealed his doom, and not his suicide, meaning that his sin was unforgivable. Fr.'s contention that Judas ceased to exists fall for the first time on these ears. Father, do you speak literally or metaphorically? I find your ideas interesting and would be glad if you expanded on them.

I understood Judas's grave mistake that destroyed any hope of reconciliation with his God, to be his strong despair that drove him to kill himself. Yes, the Apostles did despair too, but Judas went so far as to extinguish his own life. Mor, in this case I don't think despair exonerates him somewhat from his self-destruction. Rather, despair is itself a sin that becomes deadly when it culminates in its strongest manifestation, killing oneself.

The Church does take into account a man's mental state that may lessen his guilt and offer hope for his salvation. But despair is not it. I assume the factors that matter are mental instability and proper awareness of the act committed. A man who cooly calculates and snuffs himself out is more guilty than a man who does so in a fit of passion. Both cases are usually motivated by despair.

In IC XC
Samer

I'm with Brother Samer on this one.

From everything we know about Jesus, He was always willing to either accept the sin of another human being and turn it around, or in cases of 'intractable evil', He just forgave.

It was NOT the Armenians who established the cult of Judas as a redeemed "Saint", but rather the Ethiopians (and, I may be wrong: the Copts in Egypt).

The idea was that Judas recognized that he had done wrong; he repented of his stupidity but found no other way to redeem himself but to leave this earth by his own hand. While most of us Western and "modern" Christians go nuts over the idea of suicide, is it a necessary implication that through that act a person is condemned? Many theologians would suggest that a person who is driven to suicide is out of his mind for one reason or another. Is it that far outside the pale to suggest that Judas, after repenting, was driven from his mind to such a degree that he chose suicide as the only viable path?

What absolute amazes me is the fact that some Christian groups (Ethiopians, etc.) were so intent on having everyone saved, that they couldn't conceive of an Apostle not being so. It appears that their hermeneutic is: "Heaven's door is open; everybody inside!!!".

Would that the rest of us could emulate our African/Ethiopian brethren and wish the absolute best for everybody, no matter what they've done.

Blessings!

Dear Dr. John,

I cannot agree with - and admire - your perspective more.

However, and I've checked this out thoroughly when it came up before, Judas Iscariot was never venerated as a saint in any Church, including the Coptic or Ethiopian.

They DO venerate St Judas - but this is Judas Maccabeus. The Copts do not share the Ethiopians' cult of Pontius Pilate either. As I said our Coptic priest that lives near me was taken aback when I first mentioned it to him.

The Ethiopians do have some rather unique saints in their calendar, but Iscariot isn't one of them.

Sorry!

Your point is so well taken, however.

Alex

Dear Samer and Dr. John;

I am trying to answer your various points but in no specific order:

1) I agree that suicide in the general sense does not condemn its victim. The hopelessness in these cases is delusional, not real. There remains salvation in God's grace.

2) If Judas did not KNOW Jesus as God, then on the surface it would seem that not only were his actions understandable, but they were also heroic. He, it could be argued, maneuvered to preserve the true faith of Judaism. This is obviously a heretical stance and must be condemned. This is classic secular humanism. It places right and wrong within the judgment of a human being. There is no absolute.

3) It is difficult for us to comprehend how he could know Jesus personally but simultaneously not know Him. The tragedy of Judas Iscariot goes much further. The bible does not reveal Judas' interior life but I believe that Jesus' words, "It would be better for him...." suggests that he did KNOW and still rejected.

4) Judas' condemnation resulted not from God turning His back on Judas but rather by Judas' betrayal of God.

5) The popular rendition of Judas' death is by hanging. This is as it appears in Matthew. However, please reread Acts 1:15-20. This account suggests a very different ending to his life and one that has been theorized to have been due to complete and utter moral bankruptcy/emptiness. Put another way, his demise was complete because he COMPLETELY separated himself from God. This is why, I propose that at his death he ceased to exist, for outside of God there is nothing.

6) There is yet another aspect of the Judas story that is worth mentioning and one I had not considered until now. Judas' betrayal of Christ completes the fall of Adam. The degradation into sin, the separation from God has been completed. This makes Jesus' passion, death, and resurrection even more victorious.

7) Along this same vein, if Mary is the supreme example of our call to participation in the Trinitarian life, then, Judas is the supreme example of refusal to do so. This refusal is even greater than the devil's.

I may have more to say on this subject but will stop for now.

Fr. Dcn John

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Petrus ]

Another point in support and a question:

In the Orthodox Study Bible, in the notes for the Matthean account of Judas' death (27:3-10), the point is made that Judas was "remorseful but not repentent--a sharp contrast to Peter's sorrow after his denials." In the notes for Matthew 26:75, the proper response for sinning severely is "a process of repentence, confession, forgiveness, reconciliation, and renewal."

And now the question: Does anyone know if there was any symbolism associated with death by hanging in these biblical times?

Dear Petrus,

A most interesting question!

(as an aside, it is NOT my intention to try and canonize Judas Iscariot - just to provide some facts on how the Church considered him).

Hanging on a gibbet was practiced by many ancient cultures as a, yes, religious act in the first instance.

It was a way to "amend" the harm caused by a criminal, to pay tribute to heaven for the offense given.

Crucifixion was also a form of such hanging. The Romans, Greeks and Phoenicians as well as others believed it to be a public act of reparation to the gods for the effect of the crimes or sins committed.

The bodies of the victims were left on the gibbets as a warning to others but also as part of the essentially religious nature of the rite of execution.

The Turks who killed the New Martyrs by hanging them on hooks often left the bodies dangling. It was at these times that the "miracle of the light" sometimes occurred where the bodies would shine brightly in the darkness of night and even the Turks recognized this to be a Divine sign of the righteousness of those martyred.

Therefore, and I am really not trying to stir up controversy, one COULD argue that Judas' decison to hang himself might have been an effort on his part to express his anger, sorrow or whatever in religious terms. Could, might, maybe . . .

Suicides, per se, are not only noted in the Old Testament, there are examples of Saints committing suicide to prevent e.g. being violated sexually if a consecrated virgin. That did not prevent them from being included in the calendar of saints.

Ultimately, we don't know the fate of Judas and won't know for some time yet . . .

Clearly, the Apostles considered Judas cut off from their group which is why they includd Matthias as his replacement.

It was this Matthias who preached in Ethiopia where he is sometimes referred to as "the Apostle who replaced Judas."

Alex

In regards to Judas Iscariot and his fate...I think that it is best to leave his soul into the hands of a loving and merciful God, as He is the only one who has the right to judge the soul of Judas or any other human being. Idle speculation about the fate of another's soul (except to pray for him or her) is useless. Who knows, we find him waiting in heaven to greet us, along with the other 12 Apostles. Personally, I hope he is there...just as I hope all humans will be there. There is no beginning or end to the mercy, forgiveness and love of God for his weak children...even when there is a great lack of both among us. God bless you with eternal life my brothers and sisters.

Don

Dear Don;

While once again I agree in a general sense, I disagree in the specific case of Judas Iscariot. My four arguments are as follows:

1) The story of Judas' death is biblical. The condemnatory words are attributed directly to Jesus. Therefore, can his condemnation be disregarded? If so, what else can be disregarded?

2) The story of Judas' death also has relevance by extrapolation to each of us. I too can choose to deny Christ totally and completely. If I cannot, I am not free.

3) If Judas was redeemed in the end, was his action freely chosen? If not, was he predestined to betray Christ? If he was predestined, can he fully participate in the divine life or is his participation conditional, based on God's mercy alone? If so, how can it achieve the same glory as a saint's chosen cooperation with the divine mercy? In other words, is he an adopted son or a slave?

4) If Judas' chosen actions were based on a mis-understanding or a failure to recognize Jesus' true identity, and if Jesus is God, then, can one's relationship with the divine be erroneous?

Dear Alex;

Thanks for your review on the symbolism associated with hanging. But I still wonder if suicidal hanging would have been considered redemptive or if hanging was only redemptive as the result of an externally imposed sentence. You may think that this is splitting hairs. But, an imposed death sentence implies some type of relationship with society. Death by suicide, on the other hand, can be described as a refusal to recognize or to be part of society and of existence itself.

John

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Petrus ]

Dear John,

You are right, of course.

Irrespective of how Judas or anyone would see hanging, the act itself can never be morally justified.

One could, I suppose, justify an act of suicide under very extreme circumstances, the soldier who shoots himself to avoid certain torture or what have you, I don't really know.

St Peter too felt that he had failed Christ, but wept for his failing rather than think of suicide.

The issue of whether or not Judas could attain salvation is also quite separate from the issue of his sainthood, to be sure.

Ultimately, the Apostles did replace him with another, something they never did with any other Apostle subsequent to their martyrdoms.

Alex

I still do not think we can write off his salvation so completely. I do not recall at any place in the Gospels where Jesus said he or any other person was damned. We cannot know what was going on inside his mind and heart during his last moments. No matter how evil any person's actions may have been in this life, we cannot judge their hearts...not even the betrayer of Our Lord, for are we not all betrayers of Him at one time or another. Jesus tells us over and over that we should not judge others and I think this includes Judas Iscariot as well.

Don