www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Hypocrisy & the Julian Calendar

+ Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us. Amen.

Dear Friends,

I"m all for the Julian Calendar as you know.

But what is one to do when there are those who say they are for the Old Calendar, but who don't then go to Church on the Eve of the Nativity, Jan.6 (or 7th or 8th or 9th).

Is this not hypocritical - and problematic - when the Julian calendar becomes an ethnic or some other symbolic badge - but without any underlying spiritual meaning?

What do you think?

Alex

Yes, and that is why the Julian Calendar must go.

One cannot serve two masters, i.e. follow one calendar for our daily lives and another one for our church lives.

What day is it today? Surely everyone will give the same response that it is December 10. If anyone tells you that Christmas is on January 7, ask them what Church they belong to. Are they Armenian?

I am also on Julian calendar. However, I feel that switching to the Gregorian calendar would only cause more problems right now. Hopefully some official decision will be made by our church resolving this problem once and for all.

Daniil

Many people have managed this very easily. Christianity should not be easy! Everyday should be a podvig - a struggle. Are you really trying to say that the civil calendar against the Church calendar makes your life so difficult?! I have to venture out into the world to teach and find no problem. The biggest reason for this is that my life is focussed on the Church calendar. Perhaps traditionalist Orthodox have a different view to new calendarists and Byzantine Catholics.

The lightness with which you say the Julian calendar should go shows no respect for Holy Tradition of, the pronouncements of the Holy Fathers and miracles confirming the Lord's blessing on the Church Calendar. If you want to be taken seriously you need to propound better arguments than those presented.

What I do accept is the anomoly of two different calendars within the Catholic Church. This is hardly a sign of unity.

S Bogom -
Mark, monk and sinner.

+ Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us - Amen!

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Yes, you are right. We should not reject things at the first signs of difficulty.

And never mind the Catholic Church - the Ukrainians have two calendars which means we have to call certain relatives on the 25th to wish them well for the holidays etc. and vice-versa.

My father-in-law's parish has two calendars - confusion all around.

Ukrainians are, once again, the authors of their own problems. It used to be that the Julian Calendar was called "Nash Kalendar" or "Our Calendar." How is it "Nash" anymore?

And the celebration of the same feasts on different Calendars is most definitely a sign of fundamental disunity - so the Church has always thought.

The Quartodecimans celebrated Pascha on the date of the Jewish Passover and this fact alone made the rest of the Church consider them to be not in communion with it.

My problem is not me but everyone else in my family .

Things are falling apart so much so that while we still cling to the Nativity on January 7th, hardly anyone attends Church - they go to work on that day - and so goes the Old Calendar.

The Russians have a much greater sense of self-discipline in this regard.

I don't know what else to say - I am greatly saddened by the situation.

Alex

I have to agree with Fr. Mark -- we are not called to a life of comfort, but a life of struggle and self-giving. Consider the Jews who must always live with two calenders: one for business and another for religious purposes. It doesn't seem to harm them.

Or, perhaps, consider my posistion as a bi-ritual deacon serving both the East and the West. Not only do I have two different liturgical calendars to live by, I have to remember where I am so that I don't confuse the theologies of the two.

I fail to see a problem here...

Edward, deacon, sinner, and probably late for dinner.

Fr Mark wrote:

I think unity cannot be defined by a calendar (or even liturgical traditions as Fr Deacon Ed wrote above). Orthodox in Finland follow the Western date for Pascha and are essentially on the same liturgical calendar as most Byzantine Catholics in the USA and no one questions their place within world Orthodoxy.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

+ Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, be merciful unto me a sinner!

Dear Father Deacon,

I respect you greatly, Father Deacon, and your Bi-ecclesial work!

And I agree with your reasoning.

I just don't want to be the only person in my family who stays home on the 7th by himself, my beliefs on the matter notwithstanding.

And I don't know the answer. I'm being pulled in two or more directions.

Sniff . . .

Alex

CIX
I was wondering when the topic of calendar might come up. I suppose that this is the time with Nativity celebrations upon us.

One must of course admit that the Julian Calendar is in technical error. The science of astronomy was not as advanced when the Julian calendar was instituted. So the Gregorian calendar made the correction to bring the Julian in line with the movement of the earth around the sun. So what's the problem? The Gregorian calendar is simply the Julian that has been set right.
Having said that, the 'debate' about the calendar issues has and is ongoing,without any resolution in sight. It has caused more hard feelings than positives.
Probably anyone 40+ has cut his/her teeth on the Julian Calendar. Eventually, through a process of organic evolution many parishes officially switched to the Gregorian.
The Parish I was in ran both calendars simultaneously. This caused a serious rift amongst our small church community. Finally about 10 years ago we had a general meeting, presented the facts and had a secret ballot, the results of which were forwarded to our Bishop for his approval or rejection. He gave us permission to switch. I'm not suggesting that there are no lingering resentments, but time moves on.
People sometimes look for excuses. They forget that the prime reason for attending church is to give glory to God, to receive his graces. What language is used, whether one sits or stands - these are simply outward expressions. One does not go to church because it is one calendar or another. Unfortunately, some view the calendar as the raison d'etre. Give your head a shake.
One cannot as one of the posts indicated serve two 'masters'. You cannot live your daily life according to one calendar and your spiritual life according to another. Some try to meld the two with disappointing or even disastrous results.
I would wish that our church authorities would make a definitive directive, especially in North America, as regards to calendar. But easier said than done. A goodly number of Orthodox communities in Canada (I can't speak for the US) adhere to the Julian calendar. Should we be concerned about them? Or should we set our own Byz. Catholic church in order?
I suspect that I will be long gone before this issue is settled. Too bad. We have so many other issues to tackle without being distracted by the calendar.
Dcn Yurij

Dear Deacon Yurij,

Some might say, "So your idea of setting the Byzantine Catholic Church's house in order is to go ahead and forget what the Orthodox do with respect to Calendar etc.? For you, the Calendar is not important, is it? And you call yourself 'Orthodox' etc.?"

I'm just being the Devil's Advocate here. Normally, I don't, as we are not on good terms at all!

Alex

Alex:

What, exactly, do our Orthodox neighbors do?
In North America what fraction of Orthodox celebrate on Dec 25 Gregorian Calendar?

Bless, Father Mark,

I'm probably going to sound like a smarty-pants but why is the Julian Calendar the "church calendar" and the Gregorian a "civil calendar"? I believe that Julius for which the Julian calendar is named was a civil tyrant and a pagan. At least Pope Gregory XIII was a baptized Christian.

Instead, of recognizing that the Julian Calendar was flawed and will eventually have Christians celebrated Pentecost within the fast of the Apostles' why not recognize the correction? As an outsider who knows very little about Eastern Christianity, this sounds like a case of "anything but the pope" or the classic "the turban before the tiara!"

Maybe the Fathers speak on this, but why would you want a Calendar that actually obscures the natural rotation of the universe because of a miscalculation? Since grace and nature are not opposed, it seems that the Church calendar should properly observe the solar year. So why the Julian calendar when it does not properly observe the solar year?

As I said, I don't know much about this but these are the questions from an outsider. Perhaps one of the councils ratified the Julian Calendar?

yours in Christ,
Marshall

I can remember as a grammar school student going Christmas carolling On Christmas eve Jan 6.

The families that were home, were either waiting for the husband to return from work. Or rushing so that the mother could go to her evening job. Back then they were afraid of losing their jobs.

I also recall the most vociferous parishioners for maintaining the old calendar were the one whose own children and grandchildren did not come to Christmas services if they fell on any day other that a Sunday. They were to busy and work was too important.

Dear DJS,

Most of the Greek and Arabic Orthodox Churches follow the New Calendar or "Reformed Julian Calendar" where Pascha is still on the Old Orthodox date. The Roumanian and Bulgarian Churches use the new calendar as well.

The Russian, Serbian, Ukrainian and Old Calendarist Orthodox hold to the Old Calendar, as does the Eastern Canadian Eparchy of the UGCC and that parish in Chicago .

Interestingly, the Armenian Churches worldwide follow the Gregorian calendar, but not in Israel where they follow the Julian and celebration Christmas on the Old Calendar Feast of the Jordan/Theophany . . . January 18th.

They didn't update their Julian Calendar for the twentieth century - the Nativity et al. was a day behind what we have today in the 19th century e.g. the Nativity Taras Shevchenko knew was on January 6th, not 7th.

Alex

Dear Fr. Mark,

I do not wish to get rid of the Julian Calendar so easily. I believe that a joint solution in my Church should first be decided upon before I do anything. That is why I am still on the Julian Calendar.

If Old Calendarists had respect for the Church Fathers they would follow the Councils of Nicea. The Councils clearly state that the date of Pascha is based on the first full moon after the vernal equinox. Also, the proper dates for the other equinoxes and phases of the moon were known and this was the basis for the structure of the calendar.

Now, if one is to look into the sky on the proper dates on the Julian Calendar, one will not see what one is supposed to see. The longest day of the year is not June 21 on the Julian Calendar, as it should be.

If the argument is that this was all realized through modern science, then this argument should be rejected, because it was the same science that was used to devise the original calendar.

The solution to this whole problem would simply be to shift the Julian Calendar forward 13 days and all would be solved (pretty much). Nothing else (to my knowledge) really needs to be changed.

God created the universe, including the sun and moon. When devising a calendar that we claim is based on their positions in the sky, we should at least look up into the sky to see if we are on target. God created the sun and moon, humans created the calendar. Who do you think is right in this case?

I do not mean to attack anyone. I am open to all suggestions and comments. Being a follower of the Julian Calendar, I wish to be convinced that following the Julian calendar is the way to go. I have given you several (but not all) of my arguments. Let's hear others.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

Anafema! Anafema! Anafema!

With the "Feh" underlined!

Do your parents know what you think?

So this is what you have been so busy studying in school, eh?

Alex