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incognitus,

St. Agnes parish was truly a formative experience for me very early on after college. I met some pretty amazing people there - as well as a few fringe extremists. (Every garden has its fruits, no? :p ) I usually attributed the extremism to the suffering they had endured for years as they watched the faith and worship they had grown up with be dismantled piece by piece by individuals who talked softly about diversity and inclusion, but were anything BUT diverse and inclusive.

Msgr. Schuler is a good man who understands the true nature of the reform. He also had the courage the stand up to the archdiocesan officials who were unhappy with his efforts there. He is now retired. It has been 14 years since I taught at the school, but I did stop by before we left Minnesota and saw him. He seemed to be well, although the years are catching up with him. I'm not sure if he conducts the SPO still, but it would not surprise me if he did. (St. Agnes was recently in the news because of Father Robert Altier, who is a friend of mine and was recently silenced in his media apostolate by Archbishop Harry Flynn because of his vocal opposition to the VIRTUS "touching" sex-ed program that the archdiocese is touting.)

If you ever get out to St. Paul, you should definitely stop in!

Pecae,

Gordo

PS: BTW - it was at St. Agnes and Msgr. Schuler's "Tuesday night underground seminary" meetings years ago that I first met Fr. Bryan Eyman who would attend this gathering and offer eastern insights into worship. I then started visiting St. John's BCC in Minneapolis from timeto time. Years later, my family and I joined and the rest is histoire!

Ahhh... I remember the first and only time I heard the Coronation Mass by Mozart used in church - at the Brompton Oratory in London. The occasion was Corpus Christi, and it was a Novus Ordo Mass entirely in Latin (except for the readings and sermon). The propers were chanted and the full ceremonial observed (including deacon and subdeacon and an army of assisting clergy in cassock and surplices). Roman vestments, one of the best professional choirs in London, bells and smells... Glorious. Utterly glorious.

Having some good experiences of the choirs at Brompton, I'm envious!

Incognitus

Sultan of Suede,

The Roman Rite allows a total 13 Eucharistic Prayers in the US. The original 4, 2 for Reconciliation Masses, 3 for Masses with Children, 4 for Masses for Various Needs.

Bishop's Conferences are free to write others and submit them to Rome for approval. The 4 Eucharistic Prayers for Various Needs are based on one written by the Swiss Bishop's Conference.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Andrew/Rilian,

Aren't you just a bit harsh on me?

I was JOKING when I made my comment about the Orthodox not having the papacy. Please review my original post to see the smiley.

The purpose of that post was not to discuss all the reasons why some Protestants become Orthodox.

Ultimately, that discussion cannot be based solely on how many converts you or I talked to personally in our lives.

Anyway, whatever.

Alex

My apologies for the overreaction.

Andrew

I thought I knew a lot about the Catholic Church, but you guys have blown me away, even Logos Teen who is 11 years younger than me (I think!) I feel like a little fish in a big pond.

I too think that all of the various Western Rites should be allowed greater usage. I also hope that His Holiness will allow for the universal indult. But I like the vernacular better. I just can't stand the liturgical abuses that I have seen in the last 10 years that I have been paying attention! :rolleyes:

Hi guys,

I haven't had time to read over every single post here guys, so forgive me if I duplicate anything that anyone else has said.

I've seen a number of points of discussion as pertains to the Tridentine missal (I'll use that term for the sake of ease).

First off, just quickly, Roman style chasuble's, dalmatics, tunicle's, etc. aren't inherently required for the Tridentine liturgy. It isn't the same as the difference between Byzantine vestments and Latin rite vestments which are unique to a particular rite. Either Roman or Gothic style can be used in either the ancient or modern Roman rite.

Second, as regards the ancient Roman liturgy itself, it isn't about democracy and want in a certain sense -- although, let it be noted that the faithful do have a legitimate, canonical right to express their desires to the pastors of the Church. From there it is up to them to make determinations.

Third, regarding the Council, the modern Roman rite, etc. the are a few issues that need to be highlighted in all this:

- the organic development of the liturgy; someone as profoundly knowledgeable as Cardinal Ratzinger did note there have been problems in the way in which the liturgy had been reformed; it represented a break in organic development and a liturgy formed by committee so to speak. He termed it "fabricated liturgy" in that sense -- not in the sense of not being Catholic, of course, but in terms of the problems in the reform of the Roman liturgy that occurred after the Council. Others, of course, have concluded likewise, even when they have been for the reform.

- the other issue is precisely that of the Council. One of the bases of both the Tridentine movement and the move to "reform the reform" (a reform of the reformed liturgical books) is that if one reads the decree and mandate of the Council Fathers on the question of the liturgy, one will quickly notice the vast discrepancy between what was called for and what actually happened.

These are serious issues and as Ratzinger said, they have done great harm to the Church. They are also why the Roman rite is now in a situation such as we are at present, and thus, not all the normal rules at present apply you might say. We are faced with dealing with the situation.

Ideally, a robust classical liturgy can help the reform of the reform as well.

If anyone wants to discuss this further, or has any questions, please feel free to email me (stribe at rogers dot com) or visit my blog, The New Liturgical Movement.

A blessed holy week to those following the Gregorian Calendar.

Shawn,

Firstly, kudos to all your work and gathering information over at NLM. I check it about four times a today to keep updated, adding a comment every now and again!

Secondly, what you say about vestments is true. We could (theoretically) see TLMs celebrated in dreadful bastardizations of Gothic vestments that so many priests today wear! I guess the only actual concrete difference is the maniple and biretta in terms of a priest celebrating the Mass, and of course the cope in the Asperges rite and the crossing of the stole.

However, I think because the TLM is so closely associated with Roman chasubles, lots of lace, finer vestments, etc. that we will probably not see as many of those tacky polyester TLMs as one could imagine there might possibly be.

After all, we do see normal parish priests celebrate the NO in Roman chasubles, etc.

I also hope and pray that the priests who do decide to celebrate TLMs at their parish are the priests who don't want to bring tackiness and guitar tunes into the TLM. I think the TLM by its very nature is averse to that kind of thing. The fact that it's in Latin and the words of the text itself present a very "otherworldy" situation and feeling, something I think most "liturgically liberal" priests wouldn't be interested in getting into, except to draw people back into the pews.

Is anyone else excited about the prospect of seeing the TLM televised in the Chapel of the Blessed Sacrament of EWTN? It's a gorgeous church, totally traditional in architecture, perfect for a dignified TLM. And I'm sure there are priests at EWTN who would be willing and eager to celebrate it. Fr. Levis, Fr. Shaughnessy, Fr. Trigilio, Fr. Straub, etc. all seem like willing candidates to me!

In fact, it is often bandied about that EWTN has requested to televise the the NO ad orientam before, but the Bishop of Birmingham won't allow it. Oh well, he's turning 75 soon (or he already did)...

Logos Teen

Logos Teen,

Some Gothic vestments are extremely beautiful. The monastic tradition, still continued today at Le Barroux, continues to use gothic vestments.

Until their demise, so too did the Society of St. John.

Also take a peek here:

http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2006/02/crnj-picture.html

"In fact, it is often bandied about that EWTN has requested to televise the the NO ad orientam before, but the Bishop of Birmingham won't allow it. Oh well, he's turning 75 soon (or he already did)..."

How can a Bishop mandate which direction the priest faces when it is not even mentioned specifically in the rubrics for it (as far as I know).

Shawn,

I didn't mean to imply that Gothic vestments can't be beautiful. That lady what's-her-name in Australia makes especially beautiful ones.

Just many priests and bishops today wear weird-looking, cheap, Gothic vestments.

McNabb,

Ummm...I think he won't allow their ad orientam Masses in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel to be televised. I don't think he can tell them not to do it, but he can say that he doesn't want it televised.

Logos Teen

Latin bishops have threatened to suspend priests for celebrating the Pauline Mass ad orientam. I did a Google search and tried to find a particular case I've read about, I believe it was the Birmingham diocese and Bishop Flynn (was he there)? No luck finding the example I'm thinking of. I believe they can forbid the celebration ad orientam although Rome has told them this is wrong. Rome, however, has not intervened to overrule the local bishops in their decisions on this matter, as far as I know.

In regard to EWTN, I believe it is just televising the Mass that has been suppressed, as you say. The reason generally given for these rulings is "pastoral reasons", the usual catchall given for most of the poor decisions concerning liturgical practice. This is currently the loophole Bishop Trautman thinks he's found to keep some of the bad 1970s translations to the Pauline Mass, in his capacity as head of the BCL.

The ordinary of the Dominican Missal:

http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/dominican/mass_ordinary.htm

For those who wish to compare the Dominican, Tridentine, and Pauline Uses of the Roman Rite.

Please note the correct spelling: ad orientem.

Incognitus