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ПОДАЙ ГОСПОДИ!

to the Motu Proprio, of course...

and as for titles... I once referred to a liberal RC bishop in his presence as 'His Flatitude'. The bishop in question had no idea what it meant, looked quite flattered (well, I did say 'Flatitude'), beamed at me and thanked me.

O Episcope, si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses!

His righteousness beanyatituded grand-puba of Eastern Ohio and all of the Blue Ridge Mountains, Icognitus the I.

People who didn't like him used to call Franco "The Most General". How about "The Most Incognito"?

Incognitus

Keep on waiting and waiting. It's my personal opinion that this will never happen and if it happens there would be no priests enough prepared to offer the Old Rite correctly and this could lead to a mixture of rites.

The document would only solve the problem of the Divine Liturgy but it would not involve the whole Latin Rite: administration of holy mysteries, vespers, calendar, holy week rites. People would be worshipping according to the modern calendar without many saints and changed dates, they would be induced to receive the holy mysteries in the modern rite that would continue to be the official one and they would no longer know if they have the grace or not.

Do you think it can still happen?

Dear Mexican - my, you seem to specialize in doom and gloom! Here's a poem for you:

Pull, pull, pull your oar
as hard as you can spare;
warily, warily, warily warily,
life is but a snare!

Incognitus

More seriously, there is a canonical principle that anyone who concedes the greater also concedes the lesser. For that matter, I've never even heard of anyone trying to penalize priest or lay people for using the old Breviary, and I have certainly heard of places serving the old Mass under the existing indult and using the pre-conciliar Holy Week services as well. Places that celebrate the old Mass under the existing indult on a regular basis normally use the pre-conciliar calendar of saints and so on.

My friend who is the chaplain to the old rite Latins in Perth, Western Australia does everything under the old rite. The Arch does not mind crossing the road to pontificate for them or do confirmations the old way.

ICXC
NIKA

I think Incognitus is pretty much correct...though I can't remember if the "Indult" follows the old calendar/ordo...maybe brother Shawn will enlighten us...

james

On top, of that, the few parishes that are "fully" Tridentine use all seven Sacraments, rites, prayers, calendar, etc. from pre-Vatican II.

These are, of course, parishes under the care of groups like the FSSP and ICKSP and not your run-of-the-mill diocesan indult, but one example is the FSSP about an hour from my house. Granted, it's one of the few that that are like unto it in the country, but everything they do is pre-Reform. One could attend that church his entire life and never encounter any semblance of a (so fair badly marred and poorly implemented) liturgical reform.

Logos Teen

Hi,Happy Easter to all.

Last week I was unable to attend the nearest Eastern Rite church so I made the rounds of nearby Catholic churches. Maundy Thursday service was bilingual to include the entire congregation and unfortunately the service was twice as long. (The airconditioning was broken too.)It was then that I thought that Latin Mass would have been better for everyone. (I attended a traditional Latin mass once and it was beautiful)

Now that so many people who do not speak English well are attending services the vernacular services will either segregate everyone or wear you out. In one church there were people from four or five different language groups and had they not spoken English it would've been impossible to worship together.

I admit I know little about Vatican II and reforms as well as the pros and cons of Latin Mass but after Maundy Thursday I could see the advantages. I know Eastern Rite services are often conducted in two languages, but not at the same time,right?

Forgive me if I've hijacked the thread in another direction.

Peace,
Indigo

Dear Indigo,
I'm not quite sure that I understand your question, but I'll make an effort at a response. I speak here only in connection with the Byzantine liturgical tradition (both Eastern Orthodox and Greek-Catholic).
In principle, almost any language may be used for the divine services [the exceptions are, first, those languages which lack the necessary vocabulary, and second, "invented" languages such as Esperanto, the languages devised by J. R R. Tolkien, or computer-languages].
It is not forbidden to use two or more languages in the same service - this is often done on the occasion of international gatherings, or even of stable parishes with several language groups regularly among the congregation. However, this does NOT mean that anything (with the possible exceptions of the Scriptural lessons and the sermon) is repeated, and it certainly does not mean the cacophony of trying to chant in two languages simultaneously.
But, to give an example, it's not particularly uncommon to hear the Deacon or Priest chanting the petitions of a litany in some other language, but hear the responses (Kyrie, eleison - or whatever) chanted in Greek. Sometimes the reason is simply that the music is pleasant. There are a very few things which are invariably sung in Greek ("Axios" at ordinations is an example) and a few more which are often sung in Greek [Since we sing "Christ is Risen" innumerable times on Pascha it's popular in many places to sing this short chant in several languages: Greek, Slavonic, Ukrainian, Arabic, Romanian and whatever else one might enjoy].

It's also popular to proclaim the Gospel on Pascha in several languages.

I hope that's cleared away at least some of the confusion.

Incognitus

So, just wondering - I haven't been around for a few days. When did the Pope make the big announcement?

i agree with the motive of the sspx to not just have the traditional liturgy to be more available but for it to be the norm of the western church. when saying this i am not only refering to the missal of 1962 and mass of pius v but a liturgical mass of beauty, reverence, devotion, one that is owed to God and his presence in the blessed secrament. the tabernacle must be restored, the altar to be sanctified, and temples that give glory to God. as far as the Latin goes, it was a good thing to allow vernacular into the mass, but who said to erase it totally? i believe the main prayers of a tradition mass such as the gloria, agnus dei, and pater noster are what unites catholics. Latin at one time was a language all western catholics could follow and be united to in the mass...now its been forgotten. i hate how from rome all we see is talk and no action. just do what is right. trying to please everyone and their agendas is not the way of the true church, thank God that it will never come to the ordanation of women,etc. but enough is enough, its time to end the madness and restore the holy sacrifice of the mass!

What about the Orthodox objections I have heard of the old Mass.

Mainly the lack of the epiclesis. There was another one but it escapes me at the moment.

Also how about the right of the bishops to change matters of discipline?

I for one love the use of the vernacular. The old Mass for me is anachronistic. I would be for a reform of it with more use of the vernacular and getting rid of the frilly vestments.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice

Dear David the Carmelite,

How are you doing with your Carmelite formation, Big Guy?

Have you been to the mountain yet?

I think the other Orthodox objection is the Filioque. The Epiclesis could also be the prayer of invocation BEFORE the Words of Institution. In any event, the Moscow Patriarchate didn't do many changes at all to the Tridentine Mass before presenting its "Orthodox version" of it for the "Western Rite Orthodox."

Alex

Not a whole lot of formation in the pre-novitiate. Here we finish our degrees and/or get our philosophy requirements filled. There are a couple of workshops on Carmelite Spirituality and the Saints of Carmel but it is more to learn how to live in community while doing or preliminary studies.

No, not to the mountain yet, but I have run into a couple of walls.

No, not the filioque (how could I leave that out after writing a paper on it... duh ). I believe it has something to do with the old Mass being more of a memorial than a paschal liturgy... something like that, let me talk with the guy I had this discussion with.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice