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#4477 02/05/03 09:15 PM
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Below is the link to an article about a Russian movement to canonize Rasputin and Ivan the Terrible. I don't know if I should laugh, cry or run away scared!

Thank God that it is not officially sanctioned by the Russian Orthodox Church!

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/02/05/003.html

#4478 02/05/03 10:31 PM
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May I suggest that you laugh, and then run away!!!

#4479 02/05/03 10:33 PM
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May I suggest that you laugh, and then run away!!!

Crying should be saved for the canonization of Stalin. After all, he did get the "uniates" back into the Orthodox Church!!!! biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

#4480 02/05/03 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by Two Lungs:

Crying should be saved for the canonization of Stalin. After all, he did get the "uniates" back into the Orthodox Church!!!! biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin
< tongue in cheek >

That's right! I can see the icon now: Saint Joseph, Defender of Soviet Orthodoxy!!!

< /tongue in cheek >

Help us, save us, have mercy on us and protect us, O God, by Your grace!

-Dave

#4481 02/05/03 11:03 PM
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How cute.

A saint who saw to the death of 30 + million people. I don't even think its ok to joke about it because a lot of those 30+ million were Eastern Catholic Martyrs who were boiled to death, or crucified, or mangled, or sealed alive in a wall, or suffered for many years in the Gulag.

#4482 02/05/03 11:38 PM
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I'm sorry if my tongue-in-cheek joke offended you. Sometimes when things get crazy, and ANY notion that Stalin should be canonized is sheer lunacy, laughter keeps me from freaking out. smile

I recall a quote from Mel Brooks:

"Hitler was part of this incredible idea that you could put Jews in concentration camps and kill them. . . . How do you get even with the man? You have to bring him down with ridicule, because if you stand on a soapbox, you're just as bad as he is, but if you can make people laugh at him, then you're one up on him. It's been one of my life-long jobs - to make the world laugh at Adolph Hilter." (full article) [bmi.com]

May all the holy martyrs who suffered under the Soviets pray for us and for those highly misguided people!

#4483 02/06/03 07:14 AM
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I can imagine what the icons of these dudes would be like. They'll probably have horns, a tail and maybe hoofs.
I'm sorry but this is rediculous and sad, this will only damage the image of true Russian saints.
I'm not going to comment anymore because, I'll lose my head.
Lauro

#4484 02/06/03 10:22 AM
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Dear Friends,

I just wanted to comment on the background to this canonization movement to see how we can understand where these people are coming from.

Quite apart from the sect-like mentality that is driving this movement, there are also those supporters of the canonization of the Romanovs and the New Martyrs of Bolshevism who follow the official Orthodox Church position, but who also place their own (quite Anti-Semitic) slant to it all ie. "Masons" etc.

There is also the very popular cult of St Gabriel of Slutsk, the child-victim, it is said, of anti-Christian "Jewish" blood rituals.

The akathist to St Gabriel is quite anti-Semitic but the Russian Orthodox Church has not seen fit to simply move forward to either tone down the whole cult, reinterpret it or else quash it altogether.

So the movement to canonize Grigory and Ivan is supported by an attitude that SEEMS to be permissible within local quarters of the Russian Orthodox Church with respect to the way in which veneration is expressed for the Romanov Family and St Gabriel of Slutsk.

Again, I'm not suggesting that Gabriel wasn't a martyr - I'm only saying there is no proof to the fantastical claim he was the victim of the blood slander. Western Catholic Churches also have their saints said to have been victims of "Jewish" blood rituals - e.g. "Little St Hugh of Lincoln" and "St Simon of Trent."

For Orthodox priests and bishops to publicly venerate St Gabriel of Slutsk using anti-Semitic liturgical services - that is just asking for trouble, such as what is happening now.

Rasputin has been honoured by Russian villagers for a very long time as an Elder and a miracle-worker.

The movement to canonize him is rooted not only in the "unlettered" views of the peasant masses - let us remember that the doomed Romanov family itself believed in Rasputin as a miracle-worker since he was the only one who could actually stop the blood-flow of poor St Alexis the Tsarevich.

As Robert Massie discussed in his book "Nicholas and Alexandra," whenever Alexis "did" something to himself that would cause his blood to flow (and it wouldn't clot) there was the danger that he would die from blood loss.

Doctors swarmed around him trying to make the bleeding stop, but it just got worse.

Rasputin would then be called. He would calmly walk in, order the doctors out in no uncertain terms, make the Sign of the Cross over Alexis, put his hand on his brow and calmly told him, "There, there, you will be all right." And then he walked out.

Within a short period of time, Alexis would ALWAYS stop bleeding following a visit from the Elder Grigory.

Even the Tsar himself, who never liked Rasputin, was amazed by how he achieved what no doctor could.

In fact, Rasputin was well versed, as many such village Elders are (there is some doubt as to whether he ever was a monk), in natural medicine of the countryside.

Rasputin knew that the blood in conditions like that of Alexis WOULD actually clot if the person calmed down - the doctors and the anxiety only made the blood flow more.

Rasputin also wrote special prayers that addressed anxieties of each of the Tsarinas and of the Tsaritsa. They all carried these prayers with them in lockets. These were found after they were shot in the "House of special purpose" in Ekaterinburg.

As a result, Rasputin had a great deal of influence at the Imperial Russian Court. He even influenced the choice of appointments to important government posts.

It is not, as Russian journalists sometimes suggest, he had an agenda to destroy Russia. He only wanted to be left alone as he had many enemies in high places. When asked for his advice, he recommended certain individuals who were friendly toward him (it was politic in those days to be friendly toward Rasputin if you wanted advancement at court) - but who were totally incompetent as administrators.

That is what led to Imperial Russia's downfall, in addition to the mistakes of a Tsar who was nowhere near as strong as his savage father, Tsar Alexander III.

In addition, it is natural for many simple people to regard Rasputin as something supernatural given the fact of the circumstances surrounding his death.

Poison, shooting, stabbing - nothing could kill him.

Even after they found his body in the river, the doctors determined that what actually killed him was. . . drowning.

Given his connection to the Royal Family of Russia, it is truly easy to see how Rasputin can figure within a simplistic, but strongly eschatological Theocratic perspective that is informed by Great Russian chauvinism.

The flip side of that coin is the devotion to absolute monarchy.

Let's remember that the Tsar was ALWAYS very "God-like" in Russia. He took Communion from the Chalice himself at his Coronation. He could bless people with the Sign of the Cross just as the Patriarch and the Bishops did.

People had pictures of him in their homes and the "unlettered" even bowed to them and some were reported to pray before them.

When Russian Orthodoxy came into vogue in the nineties, so did the veneration of the Tsar - you could get a portrait of Tsar Nicholas at every subway kiosk. You still can.

To be a true Russian Orthodox Believer today - suffice it to say that you will doubtless sport a lapel pin with the Romanov two-headed eagle.

And there's nothing wrong with that per se - it is where one draws the line that is the problem.

While we in the West celebrate the defeat of soviet communism in Russia, many Russians see their democratic politicians in a similar light to their former communist tormentors.

The countryside of Russia is very Orthodox - it always was.

And it has always looked to a semi-Divine figure of a strong Tsar, God's holy anointed, to be their leader and saviour once again.

The journal article that says people want Tsar St Nicholas to be declared a "Co-Redeemer" would NOT put him on a par with Christ.

Anymore than the Pope declaring the Mother of God a "Co-Redemptrix" (remember that discussion here?) would as well.

They see in Nicholas and the blood the Royal Family spilled a connection with the sacrifice of Christ - and that led eventually to the resurrection of "Holy Orthodox and Tsarist Russia."

I think it is stretching things, but I think this position is defensible to an extent. This also happened Britain when the monarchy was restored in 1660 and the cult of King Charles I came into being.

As for Tsar Ivan the Terrible, in fact what he did was what many a Byzantine Emperor and other Orthodox (and Catholic) sovereign who are now in the Church Calendars did.

Killing relatives? St Constantine the Great did that as did Blessed Charlemagne, the Emperor who promoted the use of the "Filioque" in the Western Church.

Making wars? Well, popes of Rome did that as well. Who promoted the five Hussite wars, if not the popes of Rome?

All I'm saying is that it is important to put things in some historical perspective here.

Tsar Ivan was definitely not a "nice man" wink .

But he embodied the simple ideals of a strong and even ruthless Russian Orthodox Tsar. The Russians have always liked such qualities in their despotic leader - the more despotic, the better.

In fact, some make the argument that Tsar Nicholas Romanov fell into such disfavour in the cities (he was always highly honoured in rural Russia)because he WOULDN'T be ruthless with the forces who were coming against him and the ancien regime.

Let's not take the lib-left simplistic analysis of the journalists in coming to a more balanced picture of what is happening in Russia with this phenomenon.

Remember that the Russian Orthodox Church is formally and officially SERIOUS about canonized Fr. Gabriel Kostelnyk, the tragic pawn in the game to destroy "Uniatism" in 1946.

If the people wanting to glorify Grigory and Tsar Ivan are "blind," so too are Russian Orthodox leaders who have turned a blind eye to a number of things that have been occurring in the Church officially and that have either led to or supported the radical movement that is now occurring.

Personally, I think the Russian Church will probably suffer yet another schism, analogous to the one it suffered in the 17th century with the Old Believers.

Alex

#4485 02/10/03 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by ukrainiancatholic:
How cute.

A saint who saw to the death of 30 + million people. I don't even think its ok to joke about it because a lot of those 30+ million were Eastern Catholic Martyrs who were boiled to death, or crucified, or mangled, or sealed alive in a wall, or suffered for many years in the Gulag.
I agree.


Abba Isidore the Priest:
When I was younger and remained in my cell I set no limit to prayer; the night was for me as much the time of prayer as the day.
(p. 97, Isidore 4)
#4486 02/10/03 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:


As for Tsar Ivan the Terrible, in fact what he did was what many a Byzantine Emperor and other Orthodox (and Catholic) sovereign who are now in the Church Calendars did.

.

Alex
Frankly, I cannot see the Russian Orthodox Church glorifying a man who was responsible for the murder of St Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow.

#4487 02/10/03 09:27 PM
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What about
Ra Ra Rasputin
Lover of the Russian queen
There was a cat that really was gone
Ra Ra Rasputin
Russia's greatest love machine
It was a shame how he carried on
?

Incidently, I found these lyrics here. [mujweb.atlas.cz] They also had a Czech translation there, so I saw that "Russians" is rendered "Rusov�". I wonder how "Rysyns" would be in Czech. I'd also be interested in the Slovak equivalents.

#4488 02/11/03 10:17 AM
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Dear Brian,

Ah, but mythology has a life of its own!

There will be those who will say it was Tsar Ivan's henchmen who martyred St Philip Kolitsev (he came from the same Kyivan aristocratic family as did St Alexis, Met. of Kyiv).

The point is that many Russians need a strong autocratic figure in their lives for a sense of personal harmony and equilibrium.

And if they don't have it in the "now" they will honour past historical figures who represented those ideals.

And let's also remember that this entire movement to canonize Tsar Ivan and Elder Grigory was ignited by a Russian Orthodox bishop Ioann.

Was the MP asleep at the switch?

Alex

#4489 02/12/03 12:03 PM
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Dear Friends:

People should read more history.

The proposed canonizations of Ivan and Rasputin would definitively be scandalous.

Hundreds of people were killed on the direct orders of Ivan the Terrible.

On his orders the entire city of Novogrod was put to the slaughter, this episode in history is called the "Martyrdom of Novogrod".

He also mocked the church by establishing a sudo-religious order of assassins who wore monastic garb (even while torturing victims).

Ivan may have been mad but he was definitely not a Saint.

Rasputin on the other hand was just an opportunist.

He received a call from God in Siberia (supposedly a vision of the Theotokos) and went on pilgrimage with a friend to Jerusalem.

On the way they passed through Athos, Rasputin didn't like what he saw and didn't stay, but his friend did, became a monk, and lived well into our own time.

It is true that he helped the Tsarevitch Alexei, even the Grand Duchess Olga, who was not a fan, admitted as much.

Rasputin enjoyed himself immensely with food, wine, and especially women.

There is a story that he was beaten in church by a Priest and a Bishop after having raped a nun.

He never shied away from justifying his actions through religious motives.

He believed that to attain true forgiveness from God one must sin first (a belief that had Russian sectarian precedents).

He never showed this part of his life to the Empress, to her he was simply a saint.

The Emperor knew what he was doing and once had him exiled to his village in Siberia.

He came back after Alexei had a particularly bad attack of Hemophilia (the Tsar even began plans for his son's funeral).

About the only thing saintly about Rasputin was that he was kind to poor common people and to the village children.

Funny thing, I have an old photograph of Rasputin but have never felt the slightest inclination of praying to it.

defreitas

#4490 02/12/03 12:15 PM
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Dear Jose,

I think those who wish to canonize this "dynamic duo" do indeed read a lot of history.

Even though it is highly selective . . .

For me, the whole movement says more about those who want them canonized, rather than about Ivan and Grigori.

And it also says something about the ROC whose hierach, Ioann, set the wheels in motion for all this.

Now it threatens to create a very real schism within the ROC.

But let's also remember that there are those in Catholic and Orthodox calendars who also did things no one is proud of . . .

Alex

#4491 02/12/03 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Brian,

Ah, but mythology has a life of its own!

There will be those who will say it was Tsar Ivan's henchmen who martyred St Philip Kolitsev (he came from the same Kyivan aristocratic family as did St Alexis, Met. of Kyiv).

The point is that many Russians need a strong autocratic figure in their lives for a sense of personal harmony and equilibrium.

And if they don't have it in the "now" they will honour past historical figures who represented those ideals.

And let's also remember that this entire movement to canonize Tsar Ivan and Elder Grigory was ignited by a Russian Orthodox bishop Ioann.

Was the MP asleep at the switch?

Alex
I do believe that the Russian Church does need more Father Alexander Mens then they do Bishop Joanns. May Our Lord grant it for the sake of that Holy Church!

However, there has always been the tension in Russian history between, shall we say, the more democratically inclined and the more authoritarian.
Certainly the example of the Russian Christian Seminar of the 70's and such figures as Aleksandr Ogorodnikov, Anatoli Levitin and Father Gleb (Yakunin) should give hope to those who want to combine a democratic spirit in Russia with a devout Orthodox Faith. They ARE there although a minority certainly.

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