www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology St. Therese of Lisieux and the Eastern Catholic Churches

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Glory forever !
Byzantino, I recently learned of a poem composed by St. Therese to Our Lady of Perpetual Help. She wrote it in March of 1997. Her spiritual daughter, Bl. Marie of the Holy Trinity was grateful to Our Lady of Perpetual Help for helping Sr. Marie become a Carmelite. This is the only direct link to anything Byzantine. I will post it later if you wish.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 09-30-2000).]

Dear in Christ,

God Bless you!

A couple of years ago the Byzantine Carmelite nuns in Pennsylvania sent be a "work in progress" Service for the Feast of St. Therese. They had only gotten as far as the Vespers Service. The Tropar :


Protected from the thorns of vanity,
venerable Therese, you blossomed like
a lily in Carmel, following, by your
life, the childhood of our God; like
a victim of His merciful love, by Him
you interceded for the entire world
and you showed us the Way which leads
towards heaven:to become yourself in
Christ, a little child; this is why
from now on you exult with the angels
, the joy of your spirit.


unworthy servant,

+Kyrill

Dear Byzantino,

Thanks for asking about the commemoration. It is a reminder, and I shall remember her at the otpust (with Roman Melodist and Ananias the prophet). From England, I travelled 4 times to Lisieux on pilgrimage, and found the area near her relics to be one of those 'special' places on earth, where heaven seemed not far away.

She has a way of sending a sign (a rose, if you will) just when it is needed.

Saint Therese, pray to God for us!

Elias, monk

This is a very interesting discussion with virtually every parish having a different "correct" answer.

I cannot remember any particular devotion to St. Theresa at Our Lady of Kazan Russian Greek Catholic Church in South Boston, Mass. I can think of a few reasons for Father Alexis Floridi (and Fr. Mowatt before him, although I wasn't there at that time)avoiding this, if possible.

First, Frs. Floridi, Mowatt and Maloney were from the Collegium Russicam in Rome, and our purpose was to present Russian Greek Catholicism in absolute purity. This included paraliturgically as well as liturgically. At the time, Fr. Maloney was doing a lot of writing at Fordham which was very strongly recognized on Russian and Byzantine Liturgical Theology (and in fact, still is today). If Father finds out about these postings, I hope that he will voice his comments.

Fathers Floridi and Mowatt had to deal with internal pressures at Kazan that would tend to discourage Latin Rite paraliturgics.We had a number of Feeneyites fleeing Novo Ordo Latin Rite Catholicism (gosh, this looks familiar from the postings on this board even today). Those of us who were of at least partial Byzantines "in the blood" (as Dear Fr. Alexis would say and I think Fr. George as well ) who were primarliy Slavs and/or Italo-Greeks, strongly resented the Irish Feeneyites setting the spiritual agenda for the parish. While Fr. Alexis and his mother (who was also in the parish) may have had a strong personal devotion to St. Theresa, my guess is that in our parish any such Latin paraliturgical devotion would have played into the tensions between the Feeneyites and the Byzantines. Fr. Floridi would avoid at all costs a situation where the Latins could say "now they're doing the right thing" and there ought to be more of this type of encouragement. The Jesuits perhaps did too good a job in educating us into our Byzantine heritage, as some of us ultimately felt compelled to join the Orthodox, starting with me. As I have previously said, I have absolutely no reservations about my decision to be Chrismated by Archimandrite Maximos (now His Eminence of Pittsburg)in the beautiful Chapel at Hellenic College/Holy Cross (which in fact I just revisted yesterday during the wonderful Orthodox Liturgical and Parish Life Conference entitled "Millenium Conference The Orthodox Parish In America: Faithful to the Past and Responsibility for the Future"). However, in remembering my past in Boston, I also have very fond memories of my Byzantine development by the Jesuits of the Collegium Russicum at Our Lady of Kazan. But reflecting on the practicalites of parish life there, any open devotional practices to St. Theresa would have been (according to my recollection) divisive and contrary to the mission of the parish. Our stated and unambiguous mission was to present Byzantine spirituality according the the Russian practice (within the Catholic Church) in absolute purity.

In the service of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Three Cents

Glory to Jesus Christ!

St Th�r�se wasn�t liturgical in her approach (she fell asleep in choir); she was �mystical� (AFAIK) and it is heartwarming to know there are Eastern Catholics and Orthodox who are devoted to her, remembering the words of Fr Lev (Gillet), �A Monk of the Eastern Church�, that the saints of the Western and Eastern churches would recognize each other.

Jennifer is right too that the Little Flower counteracted the Jansenism prevalent among Catholics in France (and Ireland, England and the US) at the time, which is still with us (and infects some, but not all, in the Latin traditionalist/conservative movements, including at their colleges � some of them seem to mimic Protestant fundamentalists with their no-drinking, no-holding-hands-in-public nonsense).

I am not surprised at this point that the Catholic authorities would have no problem with born or ex-Protestant Orthodox (who indeed are �good Catholics� according to Catholicism) joining Third Orders. One of the few good changes in approach in recent (30 or so) years.

I am keenly aware of sentiments like Dr John�s in describing a Russian church full of non-Russians, both agreeing and being a little hurt. I think one of the main real reasons I �doxed was because I wanted the authenticity he describes. There is nothing quite like learning the ropes from real Russians, as I have in recent years. I do regret the Schism, though, and being a part of that. That leaves Orthophile non-Russians (or non-Greeks, et al.) in a bind � either go into schism (and p*ss off and lose most of your Catholic friends by so doing) or go the Eastern Catholic route and be accused of being fakes, pretending to be Orthodox, Russian, whatever � plus having to deal with latinizations and even encroachments from the Novus Ordo in a typical Ruthenian or Ukrainian church. This side of the eschaton there is no perfect solution for people like us.

Three Cents� post is very true � which was why I was surprised to see an icon of St Th�r�se at Our Lady of F�tima (that name itself an incongruity) Church (formerly the Catholic Russian Center) in San Francisco, considering the �Russian� Jesuits� dedication to keeping all latinizations OUT of their churches. My priest told me of the Englishman Fr Fyodor Wilcock (who�d been in China with the Russians), who took an icon of St Ignatius Loyola down in the Russian Center chapel at Fordham because it was �not Orthodox�. He was ahead of his time in that respect and maybe others.

I personally have never met a Latin traditionalist refugee who tried to force Latin practices on his host Byzantine church (though I have met those who remain completely Latin in their identification and practices at home � and wouldn�t we all commend an isolated Byzantine attending a Roman church for doing the same in reverse?), but have read and been told enough times about them that I�m sure they exist.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

Hello Rusnak,

I go to a Ruthenian Church and don't notice any encroachments from the Novus Ordo, so I was suprised when you wrote that. I think any latinizations arise from the Tridentine generation of Roman Catholics into the Eastern Catholic Churches, not the Novus Ordo Romans. For example, some Ruthenian parishes say rosary before Divine Liturgy. I think that is more the pre-Vatican II influence, because the Novus Ordo doesn't pray rosary as much as the Tridentines. If you can point out a Novus Ordoism in Ruthenian parishes I would be interested to know. For the record, I have nothing against the Novus Ordo and attended right after Divine Liturgy because they had the Pro-Life Breakfast at my Roman parish today after Mass. I also support the approved Tridentine Masses in my diocese.

God Bless,

Joseph

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Joseph,

I have seen very few encroachments from the Novus Ordo in Ruthenian and Ukrainian Catholic practice. With the Ruthenians they are: use of modern �Glory and Praise�-type hymns like �Make Me a Channel of Your Peace� during the kids� First Communion Liturgy (itself a pre-Vatican II latinization the Ruthenians have now dropped) and at weddings, the one-hour Communion fast (scandalous, I�m sure, to the Orthodox who know about this, as they retain the midnight fast) and the compulsory fasting rules for Great Lent, which nearly parallel the new Roman ones (not a big deal since the Orthodox approach to fasting isn�t or shouldn�t be �under pain of sin� compulsory or legalistic). At one church, after Communion I saw a woman stand front and center (not, thank heaven, standing on the amvon in front of the center doors of the icon screen!) and read announcements.

Others I�ve read or heard about are: use of lay �eucharistic ministers� (Auuugh! !!), altar girls, an �offertory procession� with lay people bringing the bread and wine up to the priest (replacing the proskomedia/offertory before Liturgy and the Great Entrance?) and, right after Vatican II, even some places that experimented with Liturgies that had the priest �facing the people�. I�ve never seen any of these done by Byzantine Catholics anywhere.

You�re right; most latinizations are pre-Vatican II influence, but these were adopted and are continued by the old-timers, the lifelong and �ethnic� church members, not the Roman refugees. Those I�ve known among the latter are smart and/or educated Catholics who know better than to force latinisms on their hosts. Just like that would be bad form, nobody wants to be an annoying �know-it-all� newbie (the kind Kurt on this forum calls �gr�cophiles� or �transritualists�) telling the old-timers they are stupid for being latinized and then trying to teach them how to behave in their own church. The wrong notion that you have to copy the Romans to be �real Catholics� is so ingrained in the old-timers that it takes a lot of tact, charity and common sense � like some slow, good catechesis by the priest in sermons and Sunday bulletins/newsletters � to work through such a challenge.

Tridentine latinizations aren�t per se bad as in �evil� � in fact they can be comforting to Roman refugees � but they don�t belong in churches whose original Orthodox practices are 1) every bit as good and 2) actually older than the latinisms that displaced them.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 10-01-2000).]

Dear Rusnak,

Thank you for the detailed reply. I agree with you that these abuses shouldn't creep into the Eastern Catholic Churches and luckily I haven't seen any of what you write at the Ruthenian parish I go to. I don't like the way the RC uses Protestant hyms, even such as 'Amazing Grace' bothers me. As far as I know my parish doesn't even say rosary anytime, which I don't think it should. I've been to other Ruthenian parishes that have rosary every Sunday. I love the rosary and pray it at home, but don't think it should be in the Eastern Church. It bothers me to learn of altar girls in Eastern parishes. Hopefully, we'll never have them here and so far I haven't seen any outright latinizations whether pre or post Vatican II in the few months I've been going.

God Bless,

Joseph

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Joseph,

I don't like the way the RC uses Protestant hymns, even such as 'Amazing Grace' bothers me.

�Amazing Grace� is a fine hymn, as are many tuneful and very singable Lutheran and Episcopal hymns, that has its place in the Roman Rite augmenting what would be a completely spoken Mass, but my view is more Eastern in this too � it ain�t real liturgical music, sung common prayer, like we hear in the Byzantine Rite. And it�s not the ideal in the Roman Rite either � the ideal would be a chant Mass, the actual prayers of the liturgy sung throughout by priest and congregation. In the West, devotional hymn-singing at Mass is and always was a pastoral concession.

As far as I know my parish doesn't even say rosary anytime, which I don't think it should.

Right.

I've been to other Ruthenian parishes that have rosary every Sunday.

I never have but have heard of this.

I love the rosary and pray it at home

So do I. I even have a page about it on the Faith page of my site.

but don't think it should be in the Eastern Church.

Right.

It bothers me to learn of altar girls in Eastern parishes.

I�ve never seen it, and here is some consolation: the rules of the Byzantine Catholic churches don�t allow it.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 10-01-2000).]

Speaking of the Roman-rite Catholic Church, I am fascinated with liberation theology, especially the ideology and how it is practiced in Latin American base communities. I have read some of the work of Ernesto Cardenal and find I resonate well to his work.

Since I find Orthodoxy, Traditional Roman Catholicism, and Byzantine Catholicism too narcissistic and "me" centered for my spiritual blood, could someone please guide me to a web site that is liberation theology orientated? I also have a great deal of respect for the ecclesiastical pariah, Hans Kung.

In Christ the Revolutionary,

Vasili

Dear Vasili,

I don�t agree about liberation theology; let me try to explain why. What you say is certainly understandable � liberalism is in fact a close counterfeit of Christianity�s values (charity, peace, the universal brotherhood of man). An ape of Catholicity. Don�t settle for cheap imitations. Stick with the real faith, the real Church.

Heresy is the intellectual vengeance of suppressed truth, wrote Vernon Staley in the 1800s. Sometimes people outside the Church can make long-neglected points people in the Church should have but didn�t. (In the US, for example, members of nonconformist faiths like the Quakers and Father Divine were ahead of many Catholics and Orthodox in promoting better race relations.) But that doesn�t make their ideologies superior substitutes for the true faith.

BTW, I just saw a PBS documentary about St Th�r�se and the tour of her relics (a whole casket with her small body?) in the US (and the world?). Wish I�d gone to see her when she was in my city. To h*ll with the Schism.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 10-01-2000).]

St. Petersburg, Florida: St. Therese of Lisieux Byzantine Catholic Church
http://home1.gte.net/christi/index.htm

Joe Prokopchak

My favorite Russian Orthodox priests were those who were pastors of large industrial workers'parishes in pre-WW!/WW! Russia. They knew that it is almost impossible to expect your parishioners to be "spiritual" when their children are starving to death! It isn't a matter of being "liberal" but liberating people in concrete ways that make the gospel alive to real human needs.

You might find the following enligtening, maybe inspiring.

www.worldbank.org/poverty/povlit/povlit2p24.htm [worldbank.org]

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 10-01-2000).]

Also: www.worldbank.org/poverty/povlit/povlit2p22.htm [worldbank.org]

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 10-01-2000).]

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Glory forever !
The following is part of a poem written by St. Therese Lisieux to Our Lady of Perpetual Help in thanksgiving for the entrance of Bl. Marie of the Holy Trinity into the Carmelite convent at Lisieux. St. Therese always used " image " in reference to the icon. Bl. Marie had a lifelong devotion to Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

To Our Lady of Perpetual Help

Dear Mother, from my tender youth
Your sweet picture [image] has delighted my heart.
In your gaze I could read your tenderness,
And near you I found happiness.

Refrain
Virgin Mary, after this exile I'll go
To the Celestial shore to see you forever,
But here below your sweet Picture
Is my Perpetual Help!

When I was a good girl and very obedient,
It seemed that you were smiling at me;
And if sometimes I was a little naughty,
I thought I could see you crying over me.

In answering your simple prayers,
You showed me your maternal love.
In contemplating you I found on earth
A foretaste of the good things of Heaven.



[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-02-2000).]

Glory to Jesus Christ ! Glory forever !
This interesting discussion has become even more interesting. It seems that the Russian Byzantine Catholic priests are divided on the question of public devotion in their churches to St. Therese. Recall that St. Therese has been the patroness of the Pontifical Russian College since its foundation. At some Russian churches there are icons to St. Therese: the Russicum Chapel in Rome; St. Elias Monastery in France; and, Our Lady of Fatima parish in San Francisco.

Other Russian priests, who had lived at and studied at the Russicum, such as Fr. John Mowatt, Fr. George Maloney, and Fr. Feodor Wilcock saw public veneration of St. Therese as a latinization.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 10-02-2000).]