www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Hypothetical Question

According to the Roman Catholic church it is not a big deal, such intercommunion would be considered a breakthrough I'm sure. No Orthodox bishop would countenance it though.

It would also be very disrespectful to the Holy Eucharist to approach the chalice without actually believing what the Orthodox community believes and rejecting what Orthodox reject.

Since it is virtually impossible to commune in an Orthodox temple anonymously most of the time, I guess it is just a moot point.

+T+
Michael

Except for the times that they do.

Yet it doesn't.

I'm not sure what you mean by disrespecting the Holy Eucharist, as long as the recipient believes that it is the Body and Blood of Christ and is an Eastern Christian (usually that he believes exactly what the Orthodox believe except the Primacy of the Pope, from what I have gathered from the many good people on the forum and a few priests I have talked to) I don't get what the problem is. Except, I was told point blank that if the Orthodox priest didn't know that you were a part of his parish he would refuse you. This was told to me twice by two different priests.

Dear Fellow Byzantine Catholics,

Once again, I also seem to be confused. Are we Orthodox in communion with Rome, or are we Catholics celebrating the Holy Mysteries with the Byzantine Rite, but retaining full catholicism?

This unofficial website states in the FAQ area that we are a New Testament Orthodox Church, in communion with the Patriarch of the West.

From the pulpit, my priest teaches us and reminds us we are an Eastern Church. Fasting is discussed using the Orthodox manner (Wednesday and Friday, 40 day intervals, the Great Fast). We have a relic of St. Basil and are blessed with it on his Feast day. He reminds us if you are a member of this Church, your days of obligation follow the Byzantine Church calendar, and not the Roman calendar. He has taught us on the holiness of The Theotokos, but also the attacks that the devil must have tried to throw her way to try and force her to sin, and he discussed theosis and asceticism (sp?) to us.

I see many wonderful debates over theological dogma here, but when it comes to the bottom line, does it matter? If we are Byzantine, then are we not Orthodox? With the Patriarch of the West, the Ecumenical Pontiff, Benedict the Pope of Rome, leading us?

Do we not celebrate and venerate St. Gregory Palamas? And yet, I percieve that many whom I thought were Byzantine are instead Roman. There is nothing wrong with that, but I do not understand how you can be Roman and be Byzantine. That does not make sense to me.

Thanks,

Dear Carole,

The Holy Spirit will guide you and your family to your proper home.

Dear Lasha,

God is not Catholic, or Orthodox, or Lutheran, etc.

God in Universal and has revealed Himself through a Trinitarian Mystery. When we stand before God for our final judgement, I do not believe He will be saying "you left one church for another and will be punished." Do you think he will? Please do not forget that the Orthodox Church is a true apostolic church and contains the Full Truth of God.

In Christ,

Michael

This is not quite correct.

Orthodox Catholics understand the Primacy of the Pope. Primacy is operative throughout the church. What we differ on is the Supremacy of the Pope, big difference!

Should it be a big deal? Probably not, It could have been regarded as a discipline of the church (like clerical celibacy and other rules). But the Roman Church has decided to declare it a doctrine, and Faithful who do not believe this 'doctrine' are anathema! Orthodox know that it is not a doctrine but only a discipline of the western church. So it has been elevated to a false teaching. I was never refused communion in a Roman Catholic or Byzantine Catholic church ever. That is because confession is anonymous and the RC parishes tend to be huge and numerous. A person can do a confession anywhere with any priest (or one of several in a large parish, monastery etc.)

Most Orthodox parishes are more like a village. One cannot confess anonymously, there are no extraordinary eucharistic ministers and very seldom visiting extra priests.

We are told every Sunday "Please, only prepared Baptised and Chrismated Orthodox Christians may approach the chalice, preparation necessarily involves, prayer and fasting (overnight) as well as recent confession.

At my parish usually more than a third of the parish will not approach the chalice on any given Sunday. I have been to other parishes where more than half did not present themselves for communion when I was there. The custom is to phone ahead and talk to the priest or get there early enough (before Orthros) to identify oneself and assure him of ones preparedness if visiting or traveling. He may ask the individual to make a confession right then and there and we should be otherwise prepared.

After all that, do you think a priest is going to let a non-Orthodox Christian to just walk up and receive communion? That person will kindly but firmly be turned away right there in front of the chalice. It is for this reason that unprepared Orthodox Christians will not approach, they know that he knows, and they can expect an admonishment at the very least, or possibly a refusal in front of Christ and the whole assembly.

+T+
Michael

Thank you all, so much, for taking the time to respond to my rather odd question. You have given me much food for thought.

There is hope that this conversation is purely hypothetical and I will never need to dwell on this idea any more than has been done here. But it has been educational (as are most of the posts on this forum even when I don't understand them).

Thank you all again!

Carole

Thank you Michael and +T+ Michael for your information. I've learned something.
Where can I find more info on primacy vs. supremacy? Explained just in your short posts, I tend to lean Orthodox (anathema to me now ?! ), but then I'll have to bet most Byzantines would lean the same way.
I can say one thing for sure -I am not Latin.

Sam

Dear Carole,

A very interesting hypothetical!

Since it is a hypothetical question, I think I know what I would do..... I wouldn't 'convert' or change my religion.

At the same time, since my parish had been 'closed' I would think I would be justified in giving myself some leeway.

So I would give myself certain freedom for a time, to attend Church randomly wherever I wanted to. Perhaps identifying 5 or 6 or 7 parishes (eastern and western) within acceptable distance. Using my self appointed 'freedom', and taking into account the weather and the times of services (saving the more distant ones for suitable days) I would alternate the options, participating respectfully in each parish as I can (obviously not violating rules about communion etc.)

After a period of time (my 'freedom' period I would call it), I would probably find myself gravitating toward one parish, and feeling more inclined to attend there and get more involved in parish life.

I think if my parish were closed, I would feel hurt, and it is important to get past that, and not let it interfere with my prayer or faith in God. So, I would see that I got to Church at least on Sunday and feasts, double my prayers, and after my 'freedom' period, ask God to indicate which parish he wants me to attend.

the unworthy,
Elias

Dear Michael,

Your questions are intriguing . . .

We sometimes paint a descriptive picture of ourselves as being "Orthodox" in all things but our communion with the Pope of Rome (I know a UGCC priest who serves the Divine Liturgy in English and ONLY refers to the Pope during the commemorations as the "Bishop of Rome.")

But have we not broken communion with the Orthodox Church and are therefore OUTSIDE Orthodoxy?

We seem to posit the existence of an "Orthodoxy" outside the bounds of the "Orthodox Church."

Otherwise, we appear to be saying that WE are really and truly "Orthodox." OR that it makes no real difference whether we are "Orthodox in communion with Rome" or "Orthodox in communion with the Eastern Patriarchs." As long as we're "Orthodox" - whatever that means.

Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are living in a state of ecclesial separation and estrangement from one another. That's just the way it is.

The Orthodox do not see Rome as being "Orthodox" in faith and, even if Rome were to accept all Orthodox positions, that still wouldn't solve the problem of the chasm between East and West.

Our position seems to be this - we take the train that says "Orthodoxy" and travel very far with it, but ultimately we get off at the Papal station - with Orthodoxy seeing us as being "off-track" from the get-go.

For the Orthodox Church, full communion with Orthodoxy means JUST that - full communion.

Otherwise, we are not "Orthodox" and are outside the Church, from its point of view - which it takes quite seriously!

In the relationship between East and West, we have really only succeeded in establishing a creedal/ritual "hybrid" that annoys the Orthodox and is a continual cause for repentance by Rome and its theologians looking Eastward.

Alex

As a Byzantine Catholic I accept the primacy of the bishop of Rome, but I do not accept any type of supremacy, because that conception of authority in the Church is foreign to the Fathers of the first millennium.

As Cardinal Ratzinger said some years ago: ". . . Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of the primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology, page 199]

Greetings to all,

I have a couple more questions and comments regarding this. In the face of this hypothetical issue, it is important, in my opinion, to have a lessons learned session.

What is the common thread for the parish closings in Passaic and Parma? Where the parishes doing the Liturgy in Slavonic or English or both? Was the Rosary recited as a public devotion prior to the Divine Liturgy? Were the parishoners more Orthodox or Catholic in their Theology? Did they embrace and execute changes requested by our Bishop or was there reluctance to any changes? Was it possilbly ethnic related? Did the parishoners and the parish priest stay on the same page? Were visitors truly made welcome?

I mean no offense to anyone. I would just like to see if a pattern emerges that the rest of us can analyze and then work on to overcome any additional parish closings.

Since I have been led to this hidden jewel, (the Byzantine Church), I have met the most wonderful people! It has had its challenges though. From the expected questions (which I am also guilty of commiting) such as "Where are you from?" discussing ethnic nationality, and to "What are you?" discussing religious origens. Maybe the best was when a gentleman placed his arm next to mine to match/discern skin coloring. Being from the Midwest, I am used to this type of action and not offended in the least (in the asking these types of questions- it seems everyone has pride in their ethnic origens where I grew up) but that may not be the case with others. The welcome we received though is warm and endearing!!!! I love my parishioners and fellow Byzantines that I have met in other parishes.

I would love to hear from those affected by parish closings in these two eparchies to see if a comman thread can be found, and then possibly use the knowledge for future envangelization purposes.

I am 45, and I am referred to a one of the youngsters of the parish. I believe if more knew we were there, this would not be the case. We must grow to survive! What about a quick commercial of tv from time to time, like the LDS used to do? I realize that is expensive, but maybe Father Thomas could lead a national committee for TV evangilization. Maybe we could start with a couple of 15 second clips on EWTN, and then grow to TBN, etc and then TBS, WGN, your local Bright House franchise, etc.

Dear Heiromonk Elias,
Bless please.

I really like your advice to Carole. My only concern is that a person may start to get into the habit of floating from parish to parish on a continual basis, never formally joining one, and not becoming a full member of that particular faith community. I have seen that in action with a few individuals (and this allows them to get out of tithing to the parish also). At what point would it be appropriate to ask the floater to become a member? I guess a dollar in the kitty is better than nothing, but support for the parish is needed.

In her case, she will have access to a Maronite mission, tons of Roman Catholic Churches, and the new OCA parish/mission in New Tampa, St. Phillip the Apostle, led by our former awesome Deacon, but now a priest and who is much loved and respected still by our parish. A bit further away is another OCA church, two Greek Orthodox parishes, and a Serbian Orthodox parish. The closet Byzantine Catholic Church will then be in St. Petersburg, and based upon her physical location, that will be up to a two hour drive if the traffic is bad (it takes my wife and me a bit over an hour one way). There is also an Ukrainian parish in St. Pete but still dealing with traffic and time issues.

To all again,

One last thing, I have observed many Roman Catholic and Orthodox parishes set up with on line stewardship programs where the member can make their tithe via on line with a credit card, or direct from their checking account. It would be nice to see this set up for all the parishes to ease tithing.

Thank you and I apologize in advance if anything here is offensive to anyone. It is not meant to be offensive.

In Christ,

Michael

Don't forget there is also the indult Tridentine Mass at the Cathedral in St. Pete (though that involves the traffic issues as well).

It is a potential minefield. But I shall continue on in prayer and supplication that this is nothing more than an intellectual exercise good for stretching my brain. But in the full faith and trust that God's divine will be done and that we will follow where God leads us.

Thanks, Michael.

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your post. It is enlightening, but extremely disturbing.

My buddy, who tells me the Ukrainian Orthodoxy and Ukrainian Catholicism are the same, then is giving me bad information? (PS, he is from Toronto originally and has family both UGCC and UOC and a cousin who is a bishop.)

If that is the case, then why do we follow the Great Fast, and the Phillips Fast, and the Apostle's Fast? Why bother? Why learn the Jesus Prayer and the Prayer of St. Ephraim? Why have a cantor, and not a full choir with organ, or a contemporary Divine Liturgy with guitars and flutes, etc.? Why even use the Divine Liturgy if the theology is not grounded behind it?

Also, then, the words of +His Holiness John Paul II commanding us to restore our Eastern Traditions are irrelevant, if this is the case, are they not? Why go back to something we are not?

I agree with Apotheoun and hold onto his respective points of view. Does this mean that I am endangering the Byzantine Catholic Church and should leave it? Are my beliefs and expectations then not compatible with Our Church?

As I seek knowledge, I remain more confused. I do see your point about not being Orthodox if we are not in communion with our Orthodox brothers, but I am having a hard time accepting this! Why did The Holy Spirit lead my wife and me here? I cannot believe this is a transitional period for us personnally.

Thank you.

Michael

Dear Michael,

You just don't let up with your penetrating and fascinating questions, do you?

IDEALLY, we EC's should be as "Orthodox" as possible.

When I say "Orthodox," by this I mean primarily a "religious culture" that includes Orthodox spirituality, faith, liturgical praxis, canonical traditions etc.

This includes, by far, the VAST MAJORITY of all that constitutes what Orthodoxy is.

Your friend is quite right - that there is no real difference between Ukrainian Catholicism and Ukrainian Orthodoxy - although there are those in both Churches who would strenuously disagree.

There is no SPIRITUAL difference between a very Eastern Ukrainian Catholic parish, such as St Nicholas and that other one . . . ah, yes, now I remember, St Elias in Brampton ( ) and a Ukrainian Orthodox Church (assuming that the Ukie Orthodox church isn't Latinized as well . . .).

And there shouldn't be any external difference either. There are, in the Ukrainian tradition, "subritual" traditions depending on the area - there are the traditions from Volyn, Galicia, Bukovina, Kyiv, Poltava and the rest of Greater Ukraine. In my parish, there is a predominance of the largely non-Latinized Galician tradition (De-Latinized thanks to the Rev. Fr. Dr. Bohdan Lypsky, + memory eternal!). at the Ukr. Orth. Cathedral on Bathurst St. no too far away, the Volyn and Bukovina rites share equal time.

There would be disagreement over the doctrinal issues, but may Ukie Catholics would be more than willing to just say, with that Melkite Archbishop, "We are Orthodox and Catholic in accordance with how the united Church believed prior to 1054 AD."

As for Rome, the many Ukie Catholics who are for their Patriarch and his Synod's empowerment would agree that Rome should keep its administrative nose out of our business.

Our Patriarch Lubomyr is already on record as saying that the UGCC (they've GOT to find a better name to call our Church than that - I prefer "Orthodox Catholic") has "Eucharistic Communion with Rome."

The Orthodox would still consider us to be separated, but what can on do?

And relations between the Ukie Catholics and Orthodox have NEVER been better. They share not only their national/cultural ties, but also so much of their common religious traditions that it's not funny.

A Ukrainian Orthodox priest once asked me about which calendar I follow - when I told him I follow the true, er, JU-lian calendar, he blurted out "So we really are one in fact, my brother!"

It feels so good for "brothers to dwell in unity" (Psalm 132).

My post above is simply an assessment of how we must appear to the Orthodox (and the Orthodox posters here - what say you?).

And there have been Orthodox hierarchs who, in the past, have praised those Greek Catholics who keep to their traditions and who have "kept a solid measure of their Orthodoxy intact."

I, for one, work with my Orthodox brothers and sisters, and make no distinction between us whatsoever.

And if Rome ever demanded of me that I choose between Latin Catholicism and Ukrainian Orthodoxy, well, and how is the weather where you are today?

Ciao,

Alex