www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Hypothetical Question

You are a member of and regularly attend an Eastern Rite Catholic parish. Your parish (the only one in a reasonable distance) closes. You now have two options. Attending a parish of the Latin Rite. Or going to an Orthodox parish.

Now in this hypothetical you are:

1 - A Latin Rite Catholic who is deeply disturbed by the problems that abound in local parishes because the local bishop does nothing to reign in dissidents or enforce the GIRM.

2 - Deeply attached to Eastern Spirituatlity.

And a very "modernist" Latin Rite parishes and Greek Orthodox parishes are your only two options.

Which would you choose to attend?

Are there any circumstances under which you would leave communion with Rome and seek to become Orthodox?

Bear with me. I'm trying to ask this as clearly as I can. But I know I'm probably not seeing options that others would see. And I am aware that my writing is not always the most condusive to concise understanding. But try to answer as best you can and please please please try to avoid flaming me if I have some how inadvertantly offended you.

Carole

I myself am a Latin Rite who has some issues with the Latin rite, so maybe I can understand you. I love Eastern Spirituality as well. However, I think that the best thing to do would be to attend Mass at the Latin Rite parish and offer up your frustration to God. Maybe attend Vespers or something like that with the Orthodox to keep up the Eastern side of spirituality, but defiantley under no circumstances convert to Orthodoxy. Remember, you will have to account for that to God and I don't think He will take "I didn't like the Latin Rite parish" as an excuse, because maybe there is something YOU can do to help fix it.

Lasha welcome to the forum. This is a Byzantine Catholic forum but they are very respectful of their Orthodox brethren. The Orthodox brethren here are very respectful of their Byzantine Catholic cousins. Each person is unique and we should respect their own spiritual path.
Hang out here for a while and soak up a bit of the ways of the East!
Compassion is one challenge Christ calls us to.

Carole,

This hypothetical situation seems a sad one. I suppose there are not a few out there that have faced an option similar to this.

It is a difficult choice to make. To be Eastern is more than attending a Church, it is living out Eastern Theology, it is living Eastern spiriutality, it is Community. Now, it is very difficult to do these things even if you attend Mass. Especially in the situation you describe; the circumstances you list.

So, the chocie would be difficult, i'd imagine.

If it were myself, i would ultimately have to go to the Mass and try to keep in touch with my Orthodoxy via a nearby Orthodox Church. For myself, this might mean visiting the nearest Orthodox church for Vespers and for venerating Icons, or even for personal prayer times in the temple.

All this aside, I do not find that for myself, it would be the case that I would hope to recieve the Body and Blood of Our Lord at the Orthodox Church.

There are many times that I find myself in places in the USA that I frequent that no Byzantine Church is available at all, with out at least a 3 hour drive one way. Now, It may be that I will make this trip once and a while (and make a day of the drive). However, I may still make this trip once a month or several Sundays (depending on the period of time I am staying).

Currently, I attend Divine Liturgy at St. Joseph's Melkite Church in Akron. I drive there every other week (1 hr, 45 mins one way) for Divine Liturgy.

I hope this helps,
God Bless
Chels

So it's alright to read Orthodox books, visit Orthodox services, and venerate Orthodox saints (which I've seen people say they do on this board), but if you convert to Orthodoxy you will have to account to God? What gives here? Why would one have to "account to God" for being Orthodox?

Andrew

Andrew,

I think it was (and I pray that it is) an extremely poor choice of words on Lasha'a part. Her dilemma hypothetically was were to go to church to pray and feel at home, in a style of worship that is familiar to her.

She makes obvious points that are pro and con on each. She is just asking for us to help her sort her dilemma out.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Hi Carole!

First, your questions are in no way offensive.

There is no easy answer. The issue is certainly not one of salvation.

I know this is a hypothetical question. But if someone were to ask that question to me I would tell them to pray over it, deeply and at great length, and to consult a spiritual father or mother. Then I would recommend to that person to spend time visiting both parishes to see which one was a home. Then I would recommend more prayer and a decision.

There is a time when one is called to stay and work to rebuild a community that is off track.

There is also a time when one is called to move somewhere and work on one�s salvation.

Admin

In light of the recent closings/mergers/empty churches in the Passaic Eparchy, I've been asking myself this same question.

I am Catholic, but the Latin church is foreign to me. I couldn't even recite the Creed without a pew book, and the few times I've attended a RC church I've had trouble navigating my way through that pew book. My family is Catholic. I am hung up on the primacy of the pope.

On the other hand I am so very comfortable with the East, its Liturgy, its Spirituality. This is what I know and love. This is all I know. I believe Orthodox Sacraments are just as valid as Catholic Sacraments. I would like to be able to receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox church without having to renounce anything. Reciprocity would be a true blessing to me. I wish both Churches could agree on this much.

Would it be Greek Orthodox? I don't think so, as I am not Greek and from here they seem to be a tight knit ethnic community. Would it be ROCOR, OCA or ACROD? I don't know enough about their differences, heirarchy, etc. yet, but I've attended all three and feel at home in all. I would definitely head towards one of these. I wonder if they are interchangeable or if you must choose one or the other?

Papal primacy is my hang up, along with family ties. Call it a lifetime of conditioning. There is something to be said about one head verses many, who from this side of the fence don't seem to agree on too much. Again- its just a different concept, and I only see it from this side of the fence.

I wish there were no fences. If there was some type of reciprocity, maybe we would finally come together on a grass roots level, and the endless decades of 'talks'from on high would move a lot faster.

Sam

Hello Carole!
Glory to Jesus Christ!

I think the whole thing hinges on what one believes.

If this individual believes in the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, Papal Infallibility, the Latin understanding of the Holy Trinity, Original Sin etc. then I think it is incumbent upon this person to affiliate with the Latin Catholic parish and grow there.

This is my opinion truly.

The liturgy and the calendar of the Latin church support those beliefs. The individual should try to find a good spiritual director and ask if he/she can make confessions face-to-face with him, that would probably help with the adjustment. A local men's monastery (if there is one) could be a good place to look for spiritual direction.

There are Oblate programs and Third Orders which can be a big help in developing a strong and fulfilling Latin spirituality if the parish is not up to the task.

On the other hand, if this hypothetical person actually does not believe doctrines in the Latin way then it should be time to move toward Holy Orthodoxy. In other words, if one has already jettisoned Universal Jurisdiction (for example) as a conviction then each Patriarchal church is equal to any other and the primary concern should then be ones spiritual development.

I have come to believe that it is not possible to maintain an "in between" position indefinitely. There are no gray areas here.

+T+
Michael

Michael,
I think what you write is close but not quite right. I think that the condition: "[if a] person actually does not believe doctrines in the Latin way" is too broad and misses a key distinction. To be Orthodox one genuinely must reject a number of teachings of the Catholic church. This requirement goes far beyond one's having a different "way" of understanding certain doctrines. It is a huge barrier, and it is the obvious answer to Rilian's surprising question.

There is much to be appreciated in Orthodox books, in Orthodox services, in the veneration of "Orthodox saints". But to become Orthodox one must reject the Catholic Church. And that rejection is a very weighty matter indeed.

(From a Catholic perspective, of course, uniformity of "ways" is not seen as a requirement.)

Hello Sam!

There is a strong tendency among Catholics "in communion" with the Pope of Rome to use the terms 'Primacy' and 'Supremacy' interchangeably, as if they are synonyms. Most Orthodox Catholics make a clear distinction between these two qualities and the words are not synonyms.

In other words, Papal Primacy can be appreciated in another way, and if we (Catholics and Orthodox) were already united as one Faith we might still prefer to have the bishop of Rome as our own Patriarch because of our high regard for him or his office.

I guess what I am trying to say is in the Orthodox Catholic understanding 'Supreme Pontiff' can be a bit different from 'Primary Pontiff'.

Just pick one if it comes to that. Just as a drivers license granted in one state is honored in all of them, a Chrismation in one is respected and recognized in the rest.

But I must reiterate that if we believe in Papal Universal Jurisdiction and Papal Infallibility there is no point in approaching an Orthodox church. We don't really belong there.
Me too Sam.

+T+
Michael

Hi DJS,
Yes, I don't disagree with you. I was using a form of shorthand in saying the 'Latin way' of belief.

There is no point in rejecting something one really believes, it would be a phoney conversion, and a rejection of those teachings is necessary to become Orthodox. (It is a weighty matter indeed, it requires a lot of conviction, but any Roman Catholic who may not believe these things is anathema already and needs to change their thinking or get out.)

Even if one is indifferent, or undecided, it may not be sensible to formally reject certain beliefs.

Now one might really and truly believe Orthodox theology to the exclusion of anything of difference taught by another church. Then it would be easy to reject that 'something else', be it Papal doctrines (for former Roman Catholics) or Sola Fide (for former Protestants), reincarnation (for former Hindus) or whatever..

+T+
Michael

Recently a thread was started by someone inquiring in to the Catholic faith. He was given a list of books to read, several of them Orthodox. I asked if this was odd, giving someone looking in to Catholicism books about Orthodoxy. I was told it was not. I have been told this is not uncommon. When I asked if there might be a temptation for someone in this position to look in to becoming Orthodox, it was said this was not a concern.

Are people looking in to Catholicism being presented with materials that support the rejection of the Catholic faith? How can that be supported? How can one venerate a saints in a church that rejects your own?

None of this makes sense.

Andrew

Dear Sam,
If you have to use the missal to say the Creed in the Latin Church, don't feel bad 98% of the people in the pews do to. Even the priests have to use it, I've seen some even forget the words and have to stop and thumb through the Missal to get back on track.

If you are hung up on the Pope, as I am. (Viva il Papa!) I can't suggest converting, but I think (I'm not 100% sure) you can receive Holy Communion at the local Orthodox Church. The priest might refuse you, but I think it is still allowed. (Any thoughts, priests, deacons, and theologians?) Everyone (almost ) agrees that the Sacraments/Mysteries are the same, the priesthood in both churches is valid, so there should be no problem...except...No 8th Ecumenical Council...yet (I might come around to that way of thinking.)

Im hoping and praying for that day, which I hope the ball will get rolling next November!!!

Andrew, really, there is much, much more to Orthodoxy and Orthodox Saints than the rejection of Catholicism. That should answer your questions.