www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How many Greeks left in Constantinople?

Can anyone give me the correct figures for the number of Greeks that remain in Constantinople (Sambul).

I hear that there used to be a lot of them but recently the numbers have depleated due to the Turks.

If the number of Greeks residing in Constantinople continues to shrink, then what will be the fate of the Ecumenical Patriarchate?

Also, on a side note, are there still large groups of Armenians, Bulgarians, and Russians in the city on the Bospherus. Or have they too been chased out by the Ottoman sword?

In Christ,

Robert K.

I think that the number of resident Greeks is less than 5000 -- I think I read that either in William Dalrymple's book or in the unfortunate diatribe entitled "Why Angels Fall" by Victoria Clarke.

There are fewer Armenians, I believe.

I think that the impact on the EP is hard to judge. The real issue isn't how many Greeks there are in Constantinople, but what Constantinople means to Greeks who live everywhere else. It's hard to imagine that the Greek Church (which the EP represents anyway despite the fact that it is a separate jurisdiction) would ever countenance the EP leaving Constantinople (as useful as this might be for both the Greek Church and for Orthodoxy as a whole) because that is their one institutional link to the Byzantine past.

Dear Robert,

In addition to Brendan's comments, I would like to add that the main Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the Diaspora are now in communion with Constantinople, as are others, and all these worlwide Orthodox Christians stand in support of His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch of New Rome!

Some have remarked that the Phanarion would like to see itself as a new Vatican.

I see nothing wrong with that and believe the EP should even have his own "Turkish Free Zone" that could be a nation-state like the Vatican.

Christians world-wide should struggle to have Aghia Sophia returned to the EP as the Mother Church of Byzantine Orthodoxy.

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Just as troubling is that there are virtually no Christians left in Nicea (Iznik), Ephesus, or Cappadocia.

My brother-in-law and I have always joked about assembling an army to liberate Constantinople from the saracens.

Then we recall the wise counsel of They Might Be Giants:

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night.

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've got a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul.

Even old New York
Was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way.

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks'.

In Christ,
Theophilos

Dear All:

A Vatican-type of arrangement within Turkish-occupied Constantinople? I like it. The Turks might do themselves a few favors geo-politically by letting this happen.

With regard to St. Sophia being returned, we can only pray.

Yours,

kl

A Greek-Turk told me that there are aproximately 7000 people of Greek origin in Turkey, but that a huge part of these Greeks only speak Turkish and accepted Turkish names. This girl's surname was officially known as Iordanikoglu (Iordanikou in Greek). The same pattern is followed in other cases. Many of them only learn Greek when they are children as a tradition and stop speaking it when they are older and they have no ties with Greece. The Orthodox communities there often face the lack of local Turkish-speaking priests, many priests trained in Ystambul are sent to the USA or Greece and do not stay in Turkey. The situation of the Orthodox and other Christian communities in Turkey is very bad and we must not trust the happy statistics offered by the EP about Church life in Turkey, which are sometimes manipulated by the Masonic pseudo-democratic regime that opresses both Muslims and Christians.

From my understanding, the numbers of Greeks in so-called "Istanbul" is rather small. Like other educated folks in the Mid and Near-East, Christians are sending their kids out of harm's way to a better life in Europe and the U.S. (OK, Alex, Canada too.)

However, as has been noted above, the "city of Constantine" is still the "city of Constantine" and a place of significance to Greeks. Greek language newspapers (at least in the diaspora) still refer to the city as K-poli and there is an unwritten understanding that the Greek city is now usurped by the T people. Despite the 'secularist' regime imposed by Ataturk and his "young Turks" at the beginning of the last century, Christians are denied even basic rights to live their lives without being beholden to the more-or-less Moslem oriented populace. It is a situation that is oriented towards ridding the city of its Greek and Christian heritage. Were this not so, then Agia Sophia would be rightfully returned to it Christian origin and the Christian populace would be able to retain its churches and cultural institutions without governmental interference. This is, however, not the case.

Neither the U.S. government nor the UN has had the guts to confront the T people and their government on this issue. The "air-bases" issue has trumped all human rights issues. The prime evidence on this is the closing of the Greek theological academy on Halki by the T government. While every human rights and ecclesiastical organization has stood by Halki and the Patriarchate, the T people government has refused to budge. So much for the T peoples' government acquiesence to the Charter of Human Rights. But they still want to join the European Union - for economic benefits.

Most Western folks are justifiably confused about all of this. The fact remains that we are dealing with Casbah politics that is totally alien to so called "democratic" governance. Western nations have got to wake up and deal with the Mid-Eastern and Near-Eastern realities and not rely upon the white-bread Anglo-Euro-Americo political ideas that constitute the fundamentals of "political science" and "governmental protocol" as taught in our universities. The reality is elsewise. And the sooner our politicos understand this, then the sooner they will get out of the way and let the true participants deal with the realities.

Blessings!

Dr. John:

Glory to Jesus Christ!

You said: "Western nations have got to wake up and deal with the Mid-Eastern and Near-Eastern realities and not rely upon the white-bread Anglo-Euro-Americo political ideas that constitute the fundamentals of 'political science' and 'governmental protocol' as taught in our universities."

Please explain what you mean by this, as I am a bit confused.

When is the last time you've been in any reputable department of political science, public policy, or international relations? There has, in the last 20 years, been a noticeable shift toward understanding non-Western government, politics, and society, not through the lenses of European or American political ideas (and ideals), but rather as intimately related to the history and culture in which political life is situated.

Whether this shift has trickled down to reach our professional politicians and diplomats, I cannot say.

I take it, however, that you are not suggesting that so-called "white-bread Anglo-Euro-Americo political ideas" -- you are certainly fond of labeling things "white-bread," no? -- have absolutely nothing to contribute to regime (re-)formation in the non-Western world or American foreign policy there. Though the Protestant/Hobbesian/Lockean philosophical liberalism that constitutes the foundation of much of our public life and many of our political institutions is not unproblematic (to say the least), it is certainly preferable to other regime forms that do not respect the dignity of human personhood, the rule of law, government accountability, etc. If there are cultures which militate against these ideals (perfectly realized nowhere, needless to say, not even in the U.S.), I'm not about to leave it at that and say, "oh, well, too bad for them..."

It would seem to me that you would agree, given your remarks about the severely limited religious freedom granted to Christians in Turkey.

I apologize in advance if I've misinterpreted what you've said.

In Christ,
Theophilos

There are seldom any realistic goals when it comes to restoring something of Orthodoxy in Istanbul. The Greek Orthodox themselves would like to reopen Halki, their old seminary there, which was closed along with Moslem seminaries in the city as a means of deterring, what shall I say, "sedition"? There have been some diplomatic attempts made on reopening Halki, all low key, and without any significant results. The Turks, however, DO welcome aid from the International Orthodox Christian Charities (IOCC, SCOBA-sponsored) whenever they have an earthquake.

As for Agia Sophia, I don't think it's even used as a mosque anymore, but is a state museum. I guess the Turks are able to keep it stabilized or maintained through government grants, without the threat of some kind of theology being presented to the people.

Dear Jim:

You are most correct that Hagia Sophia is a museum today. The Turkish government is having somewhat of a difficult time keeping the bulding in good repair given its shaky ecomony and hyper-inflation, but somehow it manages (when I was there in 2000, a large pieces of both the exterior and the interior were taken up by scaffolding).

Yours,

kl

Thanks for your comments, Theophilos. I get a bit hot under the collar with this topic when I realize that the Western governments wring their hands when dealing with Near Eastern and Mid-Eastern politics, especially in the Levant area.

I was on my way to liturgy many years ago when I heard the news report that Cyprus was being overrun. I thought, oh well, the european governments and the U.S. (maybe) but certainly the U.N. will do something. What happened? Nothing. The island is still divided.

Certainly Arch. Makarios was no saint, but a wily politician who got caught up in intrigue and the T folks took advantage of the situation. But the nation was an independent republic that got invaded. When Kuwait got invaded, we couldn't get troops there fast enough. When Yugoslavia exploded, there were troops from all over. And who can forget the massive military campaign against Grenada to free the medical students? But Cyprus? Well,.... that's a different story. Why? Because I believe that the Anglo-American diplomatic theories are based primarily in self-interest of the monied nations, and that the defense of democracy is viable only if there are dollar signs and multiple zeros involved.

As for Constantinople, it is an historic city with many antiquities from the time before Constantine, not to mention the later antiquities. But the western diplomacy does not wish to make waves lest airbases there be lost. (Let us remember a few weeks ago when the T parliament voted "no" to U.S. bases, but when we paid them off through "loans", all of a sudden it was OK and our troops are there. So much for "doing the right thing".

There are certainly a whole host of factors involved in any national politics in the Near East. There are minority groups and religions all over the place and any one of those could make life hellacious for a government, so there are all kinds of under-the-table deals etc. that I think are not on the radar screen, especially for western observers.

It is hard for many (especially the minority groups) to take the US and the West seriously as models for democracy and/or justice, when the diplomatic efforts are clearly self-serving. (E.g., screw the Greeks in independent Cyprus because we need bases in Turkey; overlook the oppression of Christians in Egypt - or in Israel for that matter - because we need the support of the majority government, etc.)

Blessings!

Yes, US policy regarding Turkey is highly annoying because Turkey is highly strategic territory for the US. The Turks have literally gotten away with murder because their real estate is important to the US for geostrategic purposes. We haven't held their feet to the fire regarding (1) the Armenian genocide, (2) the massacre of the Greeks and Armenians in Smyrna, (3) the ethnic cleansing going on in central and eastern Turkey (eg, demolition of numerous Armenian and Greek churches to obliterate the historical record that there ever were Greeks or Armenians living there in any numbers), (4) the repression of religious expression wholesale, (5) the outlawing of the Kurdish language, (6) the military operations that are constantly going on in Southeastern Turkey against the Kurds, (7) the invasion and occupation of Northern Cyprus, etc., etc., etc.

It is a nasty, nasty place with a nasty, nasty history and they get away with it because the real estate is too darn important. It's all realpolitik.

Brendan

Recently, the Greeks and Turks came very close to achieving a cooperative Levantine coup by almost qualifying to mutually host the UEFA championship soccer football competitions for 2005--I believe--at sites in both Greece and Turkey. (They couldn't quite compete with the package engineered by two other co-hosting nations, Switzerland and Austria.) But they came very close to achieving their mutual goal and the mere fact that they were able to cooperate on such an economically rewarding and complex enterprise is a very positive turn of events in the mutual--and often bloody and hostile--history of the two neighbor nations.

I have also noticed that there is currently much more open communications and common military cooperation between the naval and air forces of the two NATO member nations.

Also, it is no secret that the central government in Ankara has been applying pressure to the Turkish Cypriot leadership to achieve reconciliation with their Greek confreres on the island as a pre-requisite for the Turks to eventually qualify for membership within the EU. There is a groundswell among the younger generation of highly secularized
Greek and Turkish Cypriots for reconciliation. It is only the extreme nationalists and religious-- on both sides-- who seem to retain a tendency for violence and alienation while the secularized youth are motivated by utilitarian and irenic ideologies. That is good news. What sane person--Greek or Turk--longs for violence and hate?

Finally, not a few Greek businessmen and companies have expressed interest in locating in Turkey or opening satellite offices there. Again, a positive sign that both Greeks and Turks are no longer content to live in the past but are both willing to at least take steps to bury their scimitars and live for a more mutually rewarding and peaceful future.

Thank God, considering the alternative.

Sonny,
Half-breed.

Dr. John,

You summarize the situattion well. As Brendan has explained very clearly, the U.S. winks at the Turkish continued denial of its past, because we find Turkey to be a strategic ally. A lot of my Armenian brothers are very upset by this.

As much as I would like the U.S. to stand for the truth against Turkey, as we did against Germany, I know Governments and Politicians are not ultimately interested in the "truth" but rather in self-preservation. So, I try to remind myself to look to my Faith for truth, not politicians.

p.s. Sonny what are you "half" of???

Dear Brother Ghazar, thank you for your post. And for your kind words.

For those of us who have family or extended relatives in the affected areas, we have a lot of very emotional responses. The 'westerns' have no concept of what is going on. They mean well, but don't really understand what has happened to our peoples and what is still present in our collective memory.

Greek Americans have the same outlook that our Armenian brothers and sisters have. We see it as the result of people who want to exterminate any and all remnants of our communities in "their" society. Just kill the Greeks and the Armenians, and the problem will be resolved.

Well, that AIN'T going to happen. We won't go silently. And we MUST be sure that other Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox and Catholic communities are going to raise holy hell when we are reduced to pieces of crap that are not involved in the equation of what is the spiritual reality of a community.

At this point, although it is against our general perspective, we need to bring folks to the idea that we are real parts of the community. And we will NOT allow others to dismiss us as tangential to the history of Salvation.

Christ is Risen!!